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Mastering the Art of Emotional Connection in Sales With Joe Pallo

Specialized Storage Solutions

Joe Pallo is the Founder of Sell Nothing, a consulting company where he works with CEOs, EVPs, and sales professionals to grow their businesses by establishing emotional relationships with clients. As a professional speaker and coach, he has helped hundreds of top producers double their businesses. Joe is the best-selling author of How to Sell Nothing

Here’s a glimpse of what you’ll learn:

  • [4:45] How Joe Pallo began his journey in sales and developed the E.A.R.N.I.N.G system

  • [7:40] The importance of making both a logical and an emotional sale

  • [11:00] Joe breaks down his step-by-step E.A.R.N.I.N.G sales formula

  • [18:54] A practical demonstration of the E.A.R.N.I.N.G system in a sales pitch

  • [28:38] Why most people are passive about receiving referrals

  • [31:03] How to transform a rejection into an opportunity for referrals

  • [36:20] Techniques for creating a powerful referral strategy

In this episode…

People don’t want to be sold to; they want to buy. Although seemingly counterintuitive, not selling anything taps into the emotional aspect of making a purchase. How can you master this unconventional sales strategy to cultivate lifelong business relationships?

A master of emotional selling, Joe Pallo has developed the E.A.R.N.I.N.G sales framework to engage prospects emotionally. This involves evaluating their situation, assessing the advantages of their current solution and revising it, creating a sense of urgency by acknowledging that your prospects may not buy from you, and developing a personalized value proposition. With this systematic sales approach, you can gain a comprehensive understanding of your clients’ needs and provide them with targeted solutions.

Tune in to this episode of The Tao of Pizza Podcast as Mark Hiddleson sits down with Joe Pallo, the Founder of Sell Nothing, to talk about his E.A.R.N.I.N.G sales system. Joe explains the importance of maintaining confidence when seeking referrals, his methods for actively securing referrals, and his silver bullet tactic to engage with.

Resources mentioned in this episode:

Quotable Moments:

  • "Selling nothing doesn't really matter. It's the relationship. It's what they want and why they want it."

  • "Whoever's talking is buying in a selling situation."

  • "Referrals are more important than the sale."

  • "I strive never to speak, teach, train, sell, or coach until I get them emotionally engaged."

  • "A name and a number are not enough. I don't count it as a referral unless I get a silver bullet."

Action Steps:

  1. Engage clients emotionally before pitching a product or service: Establishing an emotional connection makes the client feel understood and opens them up to hearing your proposal.

  2. Practice the E.A.R.N.I.N.G. sales process to improve conversion rates: This systematic approach to sales ensures a more comprehensive understanding of client needs, leading to targeted solutions.

  3. Ensure you know who the decision-makers are before closing a deal: Clarifying the chain of command minimizes risks of future objections or delays in making decisions.

  4. Develop a strategy to handle referrals by confidently asking for them: Actively seeking referrals showcases confidence in your services and paves the way for expanding your client base.

  5. Provide feedback to the referee after contacting a referral: Keeping the person who referred you in the loop reinforces trust and increases the likelihood of receiving more referrals.

Sponsor for this episode:

This episode is brought to you by Specialized Storage Solutions Inc.


I have been in the logistics and storage industry for several decades. I know I don’t look that old, but it's true.

We provide industry-leading warehouse storage solutions nationwide.

So basically, if you have a warehouse that needs Rack, Shelving, Carts, Conveyors, or Mezzanines, we help engineering, installations, inspections, and repairs to help clients optimize their logistics operations.

Sometimes people don’t even realize that we can actually help with permit acquisition services.

We take a holistic look at your entire business supply chain ecosystem to develop the resources for continually improving your operation.

To learn more, visit or give us a call at (707) 732-3892. One of the best ways to learn more about our products and services is to follow us on Instagram. And there’s a link on our website to do that.

I will even give you my personal email address for podcast listeners, so email me at if you’re ready to take your warehouse storage and retrieval systems to the next level.

Episode Transcript:


Intro  0:00  

Welcome to The Tao of Pizza, where we feature top logistics leaders, entrepreneurs and supply chain innovators and share their inspiring stories with a holistic twist.


Mark Hiddleson  0:16  

Mark Hiddleston here, host of The Tao of Pizza Podcast, when I interviewed top innovators in the supply chain industry with a holistic twist. Today, we're joined by Game Changing sales coach Joe Pallo. He and I are going to talk about growing your business by making the emotional sale and generating referrals. Before I introduce Joe, this episode is brought to you by Specialized Storage Solutions. And look, I've been in the logistics and storage industry for several decades, and I still love solving interesting problems with my clients. And what we do is we provide industry leading warehouse storage solutions nationwide. So basically, have a warehouse and these racks, shelving, cards, conveyors or mezzanine we help with design, engineering, installation, inspections and repairs to help our clients optimize their logistics operations. And Joe is funny, sometimes don't realize. People don't realize we actually help with permit acquisition services. We take a holistic look at your entire business supply chain ecosystem to develop the resources for continually proving your operation. To learn more, visit or give us a call at 707-732-3892. Or even give out my personal email address for podcast listeners. It's so reach out if you're ready to take your warehouse storage and retrieval systems to the next level. And I also have to give one more shout out before I introduce today's guest. He was introduced to us by Vicki Dello Joio she is a life changing workshop leader. She or energy master teacher and an inspirational speaker. Her brand of brilliance has empowered wellness, motivated and spiritually inclined seekers to infuse body, mind, spirit practices into their very cells, so that they can tap into their birthright of joy and use it as a fuel for a lifetime. You can check out the two interviews we did with Vicki on the past episodes, or learn more at Well, today we're joined by Joe Pallo who, since 2017 is in the sales coach and Game Changing trainer to top producers, Joe's guided his clients to double or triple their production without working harder. His emphasis on mastering the art of making an emotional connection during any sale makes a dramatic favorable impact on the bottom line. And beyond the 200 Okay, was selling nothing, he won't sell anything. Joe is an Amazon Best selling author of How to Sell Nothing, the logical way to make the emotional sale, the salesperson's guide to what really happens during a sale. He is a master in the art of emotional sales referrals, and the creator of the earnings acronym E, A, R, N, I N, G, sales, system, Joe. Welcome to The Tao of Pizza


Joe Pallo  3:07  

Good to be here. Mark, thanks. 


Mark Hiddleson  3:09  

Yeah. So I have to say more about Vicki. She's one of those magical people. I've known her. I've been lucky to know her for well. When I went I started my master's of program was about 30 every time I say the years, it's unbelievable, but 34 years ago, but, and with this work in the you know, the emotional sale and anything I really learned so much from Vicki and I've been a sale, I've been looking forward to this interview, because I've been in sales since then, and I'm a student of it, so I love I can't wait for you to share, but I have to give a I can't give any better shout out than Vicki. When she introduced us, it's like, yeah, I want to meet this guy.


Joe Pallo  3:52  

Well, two things, I'm a little bit jealous that you've worked with. Known Vicki for 30 plus years. I've just got maybe two, so that's not really fair, but she is awesome, and I'm of the mindset if Vicki says you should meet someone, I'm meeting that person. Just there's no really question or doubt. Yeah,


Mark Hiddleson  4:09  

yeah. So thank you for having the same code of energy and tenacity that I have about that. And she's introduced me to a few other guests. I mean, those are great podcasts to check out. Bonnie Artman, Fox Leanne Monahan, but let's get into this. I can't wait to talk to you about selling nothing, because one of the books I wanted to write is sell without selling. So I think we're both on the same page. But I wanted to ask, how did you get into what was the journey to get you to where you are now in the earning system.


Joe Pallo  4:45  

Well, I mean, I started selling, I sold books door to the door for six years, and recruited and trained people. So that's kind of where I learned the process. And it was educational books. And it. Kind of got drilled into me, or I figured it out, the books are kind of a commodity. What we're really selling was education. How can you help your kids? And that's where the whole process came in. Was selling nothing. It doesn't really matter the product. It's the relationship. It's what they want and why they want it. And I want my clients to tell me that if they tell me what they want, they tell me why I want it,


Mark Hiddleson  5:24  

I just sell that just makes it so much simpler. Yeah, it really does. And that way you can find out real early if you don't have it, then you can say it's a great way to part ways. You know, saying you're it's in both of your best interests to pursue other alternatives, right? And I agree. I strive


Joe Pallo  5:43  

never to speak, teach, train, sell or coach, until I get them emotionally engaged. That's my job, and if I don't do that, I really don't have the right to ask for the order. And if I can't get them to say what they want and why they want it, I'm probably not going to close. It's just not worth it. And you've probably done it, and there are some people that not bragging, but I do probably have a skill set where I could talk people into baking the sale, but when you do that, you're going to have to resell them in another three months, and resell them another six months, and there's headaches along with it, so if I can't get them engaged on the front end. And again, that's my job as a salesperson. I'm not going to close, yeah, and the I


Mark Hiddleson  6:27  

learned that early on in my career, well, let me, let me rephrase that, I knew about that early in my career, but I did it anyway. So it's funny when someone says I knew about that. I knew that. I knew though I knew it, but I kept doing it, yeah, and you buy yourself, you know, and there are, and there's two sides. I'm glad you brought that up. It was one of the first I've been trained by by really talented salespeople and taught a system that you really can, you can use it. And one of my boss said, you know, you have to be careful, because you can use, you can use it to manipulate people. You know, sales, like a lot of this in the emotional part is you have to make sure your heart's in the right place, that you go and that you're not doing this stuff. But we do when you do, I tell people too, is not because I'm a great guy, but when you do that, it causes problems down the road, right? Because you've forced something that wasn't a natural fit. So that's a great point, and it leads into my question, I love the title of or the subtitle, making the the logical way to make the emotional, because that seems like a paradox, right? It's emotional, but it's logical. So share a little bit about that, because I love that.


Joe Pallo  7:40  

I am a simple guy. I probably should say that better, but I try to keep things real simple. That's in sales, there's two sales that need to be made, or two buckets that need to be made. You have the logical bucket, or logical sale, the emotional bucket, the emotional sale, you get them both filled. You'll get the next step. So we understand that. And I ask you, if I ask you, if I ask all my clients, and I ask you of the two buckets, logical, emotional, which one's more important? Emotional, we know that because that makes things happen, that makes a decision, people have to be emotional engaged. The logical bucket confirms it, and it's also important. But let's look at the buckets. The logical bucket is filled with my voice. I'm the salesperson, I'm the expert, and I've got a marketing department behind me, and I've got all the pitches and all the talks, and I got all the points, and my voice fills up that bucket. Emotional bucket is filled up with their voice. It's what they want and why they want it. And emotions are weird and fickle things, and they change all the time. Sometimes they don't make sense, but it's filled up with their voice. And again, looking back to the buckets, the logical bucket is finite, like you have a bucket full of water, you can't put any more water in. You have a client logically sold. Can't sell logic anymore, and we've all had these meetings where we go out and have a great sales presentation. They're laughing at my jokes, they're asking questions, and they come back to the joke. But can you come back in two weeks and I want to see your proposal? It's a great sale. Both buckets were filled. I got the next step when I come back in two weeks, that meeting's different. How many times have we had a great meeting the first week, two weeks later, we come in and it's like, this is different. This I'm sitting on a block of ice. This isn't fun. And he's looking at his watch and his arms are crossed. I was looking at his computer, and you walk out of there with I need to think about what happens is that emotional bucket, again, filled with their voice that has holes in it. When I get them emotionally engaged on that first meeting, when I come back two weeks later or two months later, that's empty. The biggest mistake that salespeople do is they go right into the selling logic and they're already full, and you hear, Well, call me back next quarter. Call me back next quarter. So that's where the earning. Piece came in where you walk them through a process to get them to fill up their emotional bucket what they want and why they want it. Because I need to close on that in five minutes, or five weeks or five months.


Mark Hiddleson  10:13  

Nice. And so what is now? Uh, I didn't. I wanted to jump into the earnings right away. What do you think's the best way to to go through, or do we have to buy the book? I'm gonna buy. I haven't read your book yet because we just met about a week ago. I'm gonna get that book because I dreamed of writing this, a similar book. I really think, you know, selling without selling or selling nothing. I think it's the it's the future, for sure. I think because people, what's weird is they'll I think people will say they don't want to be sold, but they love to buy. What's that? But they love to buy. Yeah, people don't want to be sold, but they love to buy Exactly, exactly. So if you can stop selling, you can make space. You can create space for for the buyer. So how would you like to dive into the well, what's the eat? Does it have anything?


Joe Pallo  11:00  

There's two things I'll say first and I'll jump into it, yeah. The premise is, whoever's talking is buying in a selling situation. If I'm trying to sell you and I'm talking more than you are, I'm buying your objections, whatever they are, yeah, if I get you talking more than me, you're buying whatever's in my bag. And the earning process is a way to do that. And it started from the concept that, you know, it's like the night before battle. You have your battle plan, and everything's all organized and makes sense. The battle starts. You take the plan and chuck it out the windows. But just like a sales call, if you have a sales call, we think it's going to go that way. They don't know it and they mess it up. So it's an acronym to help us go through that. Ideally, it should go in this order, but it doesn't. But each letter stands for a topic that I should address. You don't have to, but you should, should be aware of it. So the E, it's earning because I have to earn the right to ask for the next step. The E just stands for. I need to evaluate their current reality. That's your data. Gather. That's where you're asking questions. I look at it. I'm selling an app, a similar product, of apples, the apples comparison. I have to ask you enough questions so I know type of apples you have. I'm showing you something different, apples to oranges. I still need to ask enough questions to know what type of apples you have. It's your data. It's your day to gather. I think we do pretty good at that part. We find out what they're currently on. So that's the E, evaluate their current reality. The A is, what are the advantages? What do they like about their current vendor? And Mark, I get pushback from that, and I'm saying, yo, I don't want to ask that. I'm talking them into staying with the, you know, their current guy. Yeah, I love asking that. It's for three reasons. One, I get different results because I do things different. My clients get different results because we do things different. That's one reason. Two, asking what they like about their current vendor. That screams confidence. Business is given to confident people. Yeah, biggest reason, whatever they say they like, they're literally telling me they're hot buttons. Yeah, I'm not going to know unless I know if they say I like customer service. I think in the back of my mind, I gotta sell customer service when it comes to the close, that's the E and the A, yeah,


Mark Hiddleson  13:21  

or even asking for examples. And I love this, because the the emotional part of people will think like you're trying to connect to their emotions or anything, but like asking that question, it takes courage, because a lot of emotional when you when you bring that up, and that's what you know, I started. I was lucky enough to work with Vicki 20 years ago in her practices, and that's one you know, to be centered and and there's, there's a little more courage there, when you ask that question, and you you're open for the result. You're not Oh, I hope I say this. I hope I said this like I hope they tell me the truth, whatever it is, and I'm ready for it. Yeah. So I think that's a great one. And I think on going through the steps, I think one of the reasons we skipped steps and sales, and I still do it, I know this beer monster fed the fear dog too much, and then you skip something because even though you know you need to know the answer, it's like a little pain there. So


Joe Pallo  14:16  

or you think you have it already, I don't need to ask that question that'll bite you in the butt every time.


Mark Hiddleson  14:21  

Yeah, you're looking to find out what you already know instead of being curious. Yeah, yeah. So this is great. This is I love this journey so far. So it's evaluate, and then the A


Joe Pallo  14:31  

and advantages. What are the advantages of what they currently have and what they're currently doing? Yeah? Yeah. And


Mark Hiddleson  14:37  

by asking them who they're currently doing business with, another one is too, is people are getting multiple bids. I always want to find out if they're getting multiple bids, but I want to be careful, because if they're not getting any other bids, which is a lot of times the case in ours, because it's a referral, which we're going to get into referrals later, but you still want to ask questions that find out the what they like about other ways that they've done whatever. Or your solution, you're proposing the past Absolutely,


Joe Pallo  15:02  

and I think we miss it, whatever I mean they literally. I just think, Hey, I got to close it. When I close, I got to have some of that, whatever that is. But I need


Mark Hiddleson  15:10  

to know, yeah, because it might not make sense to you, but it makes sense to them, and that's all they got. Yeah, yeah.


Joe Pallo  15:15  

Nice. So it's E, A, R, is revised. What do we want to change? This is the major reason why they're going to go forward. And I don't lead off with it. I want to evaluate the current reality. Ask what they like. Then I bring this up. We know it's coming. And this part, I actually think nowadays we're too busy. If I'm sitting and talk to somebody about their sales, they have a problem. Otherwise I would not be there. And it just that's, that's, maybe it's my mindset, maybe it's the confidence I bring to it. But I'm talking to somebody even it's referral, they have a problem. Otherwise we wouldn't have that meeting. So that's the revised What do they want to change? What needs to happen? What it need to fix first? And is No. Who else can say no? Who else needs to be involved? Who are the decision makers? One of the worst things in sales, we go through, we give our presentation. That sounds good, Joe. I gotta go talk with my boss and see what she wants. It's like, Oh, great. Now I gotta come back in in two weeks or two months, and do my dog and pony or worse, you're going to sell my product for me and you're not an expert on it. You're going to sell me for me and you're not an expert on it. There are some times can't do it all time. I'll back out of a presentation without closing if I don't have them there. Sometimes you can't but, or maybe I won't give the price again. You got to be respectful and do it appropriate professionally. But I want to know who else can say no,


Mark Hiddleson  16:43  

yeah, or even if you finish that presentation instead of closing for the order, what you're closing for is the meeting that you want. Yes, you can get right, because you're not going to skip a step again, a


Joe Pallo  16:53  

little bite you in the butt if you do. Yeah, nice. That's the first and I if you want one piece you can apply tomorrow that will impact your business, and you can do it at any step, any part of the sale, or any type of communication, eyes, interpret back what they just said. Yes, just say hey, and I this is exactly what I'd say if I was talking to you, and say, Hey, Mark. Just for clarity, can I just repeat back what you just said? And I really don't even wait for an answer. I just jump in and I'll go on a minute or two minute rant of reading all of the E, A and R, everything they just told me, I'm repeating it back to them. And what that does, you'll hear things like, Palo, you said it better than I did. It's repeating what they and mentally, I'm on their side of the table, and I have not even started selling, it's like, Yeah, this guy gets me. That is a big part interpret back. It clarifies everything. They may, you may have heard something wrong, but it clarifies. But big thing is they're thinking, This guy's, uh, he's interested in me. And it's part of the relationship there, the emotion right then and there,


Mark Hiddleson  17:56  

yeah. And I think when I do that right, most of the time I had, I there is something that I've messed up, because I've read my autobiography into their answer, and then that's a great time. It clarifies it, and you're just that much further. Because most time you don't nail it on the first brother, maybe you do. I rarely, I go, you know, I heard what you said about this and that you like that. They're like, Well, no, like you got this part right, but, you know, or just saying it in their words, clarifying. I mean that i is is awesome, and I wanted to back up. So the end was the no, like, who can say no?


Joe Pallo  18:29  

Who else? Who else? Yeah, who else needs to be involved? Who the decision make? Who can say no to this? So


Mark Hiddleson  18:33  

give me, I'll put you on the spot. So what are some great questions that you can ask? Because that's another one that's emotionally sensitive, like you're working with somebody, you've made the connection, and it's like, you know, do you need to talk to your boss? Is probably a bad way to say one of the ways I've said, Who else will be involved in the decision making process of this project? That's one question I'm


Joe Pallo  18:54  

again, I strive in real simple. I say, hey, you know what? Let's jump in the role play here. I do it all the time with my clients. Sometimes I don't tell them. I jump in and out. I don't bring them a lot. Don't bring them along. But I'm telling you, let's just say that you need to check with your boss. Oh, that's, that's the objection.


Mark Hiddleson  19:10  

Okay, all this looks great. Thank you for coming in. I'm going to show this to my boss, and we'll get back to you in two weeks.


Joe Pallo  19:18  

That's, that's good. Can I ask a question, though, what you do? And I'm, I've done my research on you, but I just know a little bit about so I may be off. So give me a little bit latitude, yeah, yeah. But you're help. You're helping. It's like, if you're going to a warehouse and you got to build all the shelvings and all the conveyor belts for the whole piece, yeah, that's a pretty big process, correct? Yeah. And you need a lot of numbers, and you don't want to come in and say, Hey, here's the numbers and you find out, Oh, they got a second floor. We need more. It's going to change your numbers. You're not going to look professional, right? Is that true with how you do your business? You want to get all the information first before you


Mark Hiddleson  19:50  

got to get everything up front? Yeah, yeah. That's kind of


Joe Pallo  19:53  

the same way with me. Would we be able to apply that same process here and come back and meet with your boss, and we'll go through the whole thing again and make sure. To get everything the way that they want


Mark Hiddleson  20:01  

  1. Well, he's, he's really busy, and he put me in charge of this project. So I kind of wanted to be able to give, get what I can get from you, and I still need to hear from from somebody else, but I really like you can tell you done your homework, but yeah, no, it's


Joe Pallo  20:18  

and I appreciate that, and that's actually what they want to do. But if this is a big project for them, we want to make sure we do it right and we get it done on time in the way they want it. Do you agree with that?


Mark Hiddleson  20:29  

Yeah, yeah. The timing is critical to my boss. That's actually one thing he told me, timing is, is the number one thing?


Joe Pallo  20:34  

Well, if that's case, let's say the step. And there may be things that he's not even conveying to you, let's get all the key players on the table, get it all out. I could spin it up and get it back to you first, but otherwise, we're kind of chunking at it. And I'm just working on one floor again. In your business, working on the ground floor, I've now got to work on the second floor, and you have someone else on the third floor, and they all have different specifications. Uh, let's just get everyone on the same page. Yeah. Well, again, you're putting me on the spot. I appreciate


Mark Hiddleson  20:59  

that. You said role play. You said the word role played. I think it's one of the things. I did not


Joe Pallo  21:04  

know what I was getting into.


Mark Hiddleson  21:08  

You were great, Joe, that is awesome, because I did. I said I warned you. I said I was going to put you on the spot, and then it had to be my word. Like, that's the thing. If you say you're going to do something, you have to do it. Yes. So thank you for for doing that, because I think we roleplay in our company every single employee. Because my thing is, and I do it like, if I have to make a tough phone call, and I know it's going to be tough, you're going to be on my list now too. I might call you, say Joe, role play this with me, because it's a skill, and you find out where the emotions are or the things, or possibly the things you're missing. I think a lot, I think role playing is a well, it's a lot of fun. If it could be embarrassing, right? It could be on the spot, but it's a great way to build that skill. And I say it's an environment, but I guess podcasts recording stakes are kind of high, so that was awesome. And who are the no's? And then interpreting, I love those two, and it's right in the middle of your process. So I'm ready for the other N.


Joe Pallo  22:12  

The N is nothing. What if nothing changes? And I asked this to create a sense of urgency, so I always want to think about it, whatever. And nine times out of 10 their answer, it's going to be fluff. There's nothing there. So I will ask, what else? I mean, I'm going to push them. I mean, the two most underused words in sales are what else. And they're, they're most valuable too. They're saying, Well, you know, we'll just be the same part, like we'll have the same problems next year. But what else? How does that affect your growth? And I will just dig in on that, because, again, I need that sense of urgency. So nothing and stands for nothing. What if they do nothing? Wow. And


Mark Hiddleson  22:59  

then what else? So the what else is the key, and I that's another one that I love to use. I had a client that used to do that to me all the time. Used to drive me crazy. But what else? That's it? Greg, but it was kind of it's a good process, because whenever I ask my team, I ask, what else? A lot that seems like there always is. There's something else that that's important. So, so that's nothing, and then so the G, G


Joe Pallo  23:27  

is the game. What is the pay value? You know, now we can start talking about that, and you notice this whole process is done right at the beginning. I have not even started talking about what I do. That's where the essence of How to Sell Nothing. It doesn't matter. At that point whatever your product or service is, they've just told me a ton of information. My demo is just tailored to that. One of the biggest things in mistakes and sales is people come in and they'll show up, throw up, they puke about, you know, themselves, and they are. I love saying that on a call or a conversation. And actually, I've said it's probably I'm a process guy. If someone, if I was talking to you, I'd say, hey, you know, Joel, what do you do? Tell me what you do. I do sales coaching and executive level training. But if it's all right, Can I skip over the part where I brag about myself, about how good and great and wonderful one I'd like to ask you some questions. I literally say that, yeah, and they smile and they chuckle. It's just, Hey, is it all right? If I skip over the part where I brag about myself, about how good and great and wonderful, and I'd like to ask you some questions, they'll chuckle. They'll go back in and I'm right at earning that's why I bring it up right away. Yeah, it doesn't really, doesn't matter. They don't care about me and what I've


Mark Hiddleson  24:37  

done right? It's irrelevant. It's, it's whatever their whatever their pain is, whatever their trusty there in the first place. So the G is a little bit more about, about the game. Oh,


Joe Pallo  24:51  

let's say that I'm working with someone that can save them five hours of process. We're going to sell them a service and take five hours off. Are out of the out of their week. Okay, so let's just say, and I'm talking to you, I'll jump in the role play now. So Mark, let's say, if we did this, and for what you're saying, if this problem was dropped, that would free up about five hours of your week. Is that right? Is that what you said?


Mark Hiddleson  25:14  

Yeah, when we looked at it, that's how, that's how it pencil out,


Joe Pallo  25:17  

yeah. What would you do with those five hours?


Mark Hiddleson  25:22  

I Yes, right? Well, probably the first thing that came to my mind is my surfboard or my snow skis.


Joe Pallo  25:29  

So now we have a sense of urgency, yeah, yeah. May not be work related, but we got a sense of urgency. Yeah, yeah. So


Mark Hiddleson  25:36  

we're in business. You could, I could say, you know, I've really been wanting to start another division that I know it's important in our industry that we should been doing, but I haven't had the time or talent or resources to go after it. So in business, tell


Joe Pallo  25:49  

me a little bit about that division. What would that division be?


Mark Hiddleson  25:51  

So for us, it's, uh, it would be a complete safety and repairs division where we go in and people have, you know, safety issues in their warehouse. And I mean, I think it's a big one, and I think it would be good for a company, it'd be good for our clients, but it's something you have to be really good at. You have to have to know the engineering side, there's a lot of training marketing, and then if you're going to do it on a scale, you really have to have the right training systems in place to pull it off. So


Joe Pallo  26:16  

this could be a product that you can cross sell to all of your old clients. That's valuable. Absolutely, yes, that's the game. I'll step back out of role play. And I don't even know if I very little of what you do, but that's just kind of how my mind works. But that's what I would


Mark Hiddleson  26:32  

do with an extra five hour. I mean, honestly, the surfboard I've always one of my it's not on the list. I guess it'd be in the uh, either the E or the A in your list. One of the things I've always thought is the you have to sell yourself first. And when I say sell yourself, I don't mean selling yourself to somebody else. I mean selling yourself on yourself. Why am I the one? Why do they want to deal with me? What makes me different, and believe it, and have it be something, and where I've gotten a lot of that is in my hobbies, in this my hobbies like surfboarding or going to weekend workshops with people like Vicki or martial arts or things that I think and it was funny, I realized a lot of my big aha moments or things in business would come up while I was doing one of those things, but Solve this big, important problem. I wasn't really thinking about that. Wow. So I'll joke with my customers, like, if in my regular working hours, I'm $100 an hour, but if I'm on my surfboard, is $200 that time is, yeah, is valuable. And I think your product does save people time, right? I mean, isn't that one of the game and the G that's one of your biggest or the biggest right is make triple without working harder or more more.


Joe Pallo  27:47  

I'm not the guy who says you need to work more hours. Yeah, but I get, I mean, it's been said that I get more out of people than they think so. And it's not working more hours. It's helping figure out what's important, why they want it. And we break that down to that specific duplicatable activity, and it's done, you know, three days a week, or whatever their schedule is, whatever they need. Yeah, yeah. So I


Mark Hiddleson  28:13  

really so the other one that I think, and this is we promise to talk about generating referrals, right? Creating a huge referral stream. So one of the questions is great to ask is, why do you P I mean, I'm a huge referral fan. I have, I have a lot of I can't wait to hear your thing on referrals, if some like a located Christmas. But why do you think most people are passive about referrals and end


Joe Pallo  28:38  

up, you know, potentially, I think, well, let's look at it this way. When you started selling, you sucked at everything. You were horrible. We all were right,


Mark Hiddleson  28:50  

and that's why people bought, for me in the for the beginning of


Joe Pallo  28:53  

like the puppy dog sale. But through experience, we started out horrible. And they say there's 10 little cycles, 10 parts of the sale, through experience and focused we've gotten pretty good. Maybe it's establishing trust or creating a buying atmosphere or closing or asking questions on a scale of one to 10. We're up here. We're in a 10. We're really good at when it comes to referrals. 98% of us are still rookies. We've never let this one part of your business get on par with everything else, and that's where the growth happens. I mean, most people, when they ask for referrals are very passive. They'll say, I kind of maybe like to have a business card if it's not too much trouble. Oh, never mind. Here. Here's one of my business cards, and they're just referrals are given the confident people. So that's the first concept, and it's our thinking has to change first. When I do my coaching, I'm not just giving and say, here's three ways of ask for referrals. It's our thinking. We have to be intentional about referrals. We have to realize there's no. Nothing passive about referrals. Referrals are given the confident people, and referrals are more important than the sale.


Mark Hiddleson  30:07  

I'll even repeat that, referrals are more important than the sale. Absolutely, yeah, yeah, because it goes on my and I wanted to talk more about it starts. And I was like, like I said, was looking at somebody who trained some he trained me on this 25 years ago. I was new. Is important, but I've always, whenever I ask people how, one of the reasons I do or ways I do it is, how do you hear about this? And a lot of times I ask, even if I know, because it's one of those things I want to ask, just to make sure that I have it right. And whatever their answer is, I always say 95% of our business comes from referral or repeat business. So always want to know who to give a thank you to, who to give a shout out to. So even if it's not a referral, the first thing I like to say this is 95% of what we do is referral, because I want to start from there. And the other thing you're saying the referral is more important. It's like, I'm not really trying to close for that sale, for that day. I'm trying to close for, you know, 2030,


Joe Pallo  31:03  

year relationship. This happened years ago. I worked a company called Tom James. They sell custom clothing. Great company, but it's set your own appointments with CEOs, C level people. And I went out and pitched a guy. This was at Lutheran brother. They're now thriving financial and his name's Lyle hemingson. And he said, No, he did not buy anything from me. So I got to know we got it all recorded. I heard a no, I'm not that good of a salesperson. But he gave me four referrals. 18 months later, I had 80 clients that thrive in financial. Wow. The same thing happened at St Paul. Come to St Paul Travelers Insurance here in Minnesota, and they're now out in New Jersey. They're called travelers, but I sent my Conroy a mailer, called him, got an appointment, sold him a suit, had not even delivered the suit, because it takes six weeks to make it. So I just literally collected the cash and asked him for referrals. He gave me three referrals. Two years later, I had 150 clients at St Paul company on parking spot. I had my own ID badge. There is no way their business could have equated to what it was, and neither one of them actually got the fuel or try my product. Referrals are given because they like me, yeah, relationship, and so I love


Mark Hiddleson  32:21  

that and that you were in the apparel business. My dad was in the apparel he worked for Ferris slacks in the 70s and 80s, where they were still manufacturing in the States. They were,


Joe Pallo  32:32  

have you heard of Farah? I've heard of it, yeah,


Mark Hiddleson  32:35  

yeah. So they do so like Macy's and Mervyn's, they were kind of like a higher end, you know, made in America stuff. But, uh, I love that. And still, if I go to Nordstroms, I love meeting somebody who can look at and know you and sell. I want to be sold like people want to buy. I love the salespeople that I meet. Yeah, and my dad was, I was trying to think of my first sales experiences before we talked, and one of them was working sample sales with my dad, because my dad would have all these samples, and he go to these sales, and so I learned and you could negotiate. That was when I was, like, 12 or 13 years old. I was like, wait a minute, you don't just set the price, and that's it, yep. So I love because he brought up something I actually forgot about, is it, if you don't get the sale, ask for a referral. So say, Give us an example. We want to jump into role playing, but you know, okay, Joe, you didn't buy from us. We had a great connection, right? I mean, we saw a lot of opportunities here. Do you know of anyone else who may be able to benefit from these services we provide?


Joe Pallo  33:39  

Well, I mean, if I could back up and I'll a step that I strive to do, and I coach on this, we'll just flip it around where either you bought from your client or you have Yeah. But Mark, just curious if I could, let's just say it's first time we've met, yeah, and you haven't really experienced my product. You just know me for whatever reason you like me, Yeah, who knows? Because he


Mark Hiddleson  34:03  

introduced us, yeah, you already started, like, up


Joe Pallo  34:09  

here, Mark, just curious, just based on what we talked about today. I know you haven't really experienced or tried anything. What were some things that appealed to you about what we talked What did you like about what we talked


Mark Hiddleson  34:18  

about? Oh, man, I loved what you were talking about, saving time and being able to start this other division that kind of got excited about that. What else? Just your approach? Well, I think you're you're straightforward, and we didn't end up using you, but I like that you helped us identify some key areas that we weren't looking at. Other people did.


Joe Pallo  34:40  

It was just, you know, I think you're professional, appreciating professionalism, your approach, everything like that. So very good you like. Because one, we could help you out with that change over to change the new division, save time, point out some things that you didn't really wear, that could help you out and have a good approach. Yeah, Mark, who are three people would appreciate. Those things. Basically


Mark Hiddleson  35:01  

everyone, the successful, busy people that I know, yeah,


Joe Pallo  35:06  

and I got you to tell say what you liked about me that's out there first, those whatever you like about me are the exact same reasons why you should give me three or four referrals. Yeah, and I asked for a specific number every time. Yeah, yeah. And


Mark Hiddleson  35:21  

I'm actually even thinking about, I see people. I can refer you to talking about this for a minute, but there are so there's times when I do, I meet salespeople all the time because, you know, the owner of the company, we're getting pitch. And there are times where I think, Wow, this is great. It's not really for us, but, you know, we have 1000 clients, and I have, you know, a network, my network, that's another thing I think about getting referrals, is to give referrals, yeah, so, uh, train myself to kind of hear what people are saying is, like, no, this doesn't work for us, you know, like, or it's trucking companies, you know, because we're doing 100 loads a month, like, I've got clients that are doing 3000 loads a month. So, you know, whatever benefit could be for me, it could be for them, and I think that's a great and I don't, people don't ask me that. It's not like you said, most people aren't, because I'll even be thinking about it, because I'm training myself to refer but, but sales people that approach me, they're not, it's kind of like we're not a match. That's it.


Joe Pallo  36:20  

Yeah, it's when it comes to the referral piece, we wing our ask. Think about it, when you have a sales presentation, you pretty much know what you're going to say when it comes to the referrals. You don't even have the battle plan. You're just running up the hill and Hey, who do you know? Yeah, sale. The referral ask is a sale. So therefore we got to treat it like a sale. It's more important than the sale. So we still gotta treat that way. We gotta walk through them through a process, um, and once you get them, I You said this earlier. You gave me three, three names. Um, I called them all three, and all three of them said, No, I owe you a call back. It's a great voicemail. Hey, Mark, thanks a lot appreciate. Give me three names last week, connected with them. Looks like they connected with them. Looks like they're taking care of the good guys. Talk to you later, because your mind goes well, who else do I know? I've just planted the seed for the next time I see you. Or if you gave me all three referrals, all three of them became clients or took a meeting, I owe you a call back, because your mind goes well, who else do you think? And I'll say something like, when I'm done getting referrals, I'll say, Hey, Mark, I'll let you know which ones hung up when I mentioned your name. Just a little bit of humor, but that tells you I'm going to give you a feedback. And again, I owe you that something else. And this is a big piece right now, when it comes to referrals, a name and a number is not enough. We're too busy. You have right now, you have people. You've got a stack of business cards in your desk drawer, your dresser at home, on your dashboard of your car, of good referrals. You may have called them, but you can't get in or left a message, and you don't throw them away. And we have to get something to make that referral more valuable. So I don't count it as a referral unless I get a silver bullet. Share with that is


Mark Hiddleson  38:06  

glad you asked. I want to hear about the silver the silver bullet.


Joe Pallo  38:12  

A silver bullet is something that allows me to draft off the referee's relationship onto that first voicemail or first call or first meeting I need to draft off of their relationship. So it's the definition is, it's something that I know that an average Joe on the street doesn't know. So let's just say you referred me to Bill Anderson, okay, all right, I'll ask you, how long have you known Bill, what levels you had, what you know, the generic questions. And that's good. Most people stop there, and then I'll change and I'll say, hey, just curious, what type of decision maker is bill? Is he a numbers guy, or is he a driver, or is he a talker that gets you thinking about him, and I want you thinking about him, and that's good information. Yeah, if he says, he says he's a talker when I'm talking to him on the phone, I gotta let him get his words out. Or if he says he's a numbers guy, I gotta have a lot of facts. Or if he's a driver, I got like five seconds to catch his attention, and I'm gonna get seven more, and then maybe eight more, but I gotta let him be in control. But that's good to know. So that's my first part of my silver bullets.


Mark Hiddleson  39:14  

Is that why I'm only giving you seven seconds? Because I'm a driver? Well, I


Joe Pallo  39:17  

am too. So we're thinking we're in sync. I love it. The big value of the silver bullet. I'll ask that question, because that gets him really thinking about Bill Anderson. Then I'll say, hey, just curious, what do you respect most about Bill? What do you respect most about Bill? That is power, that is because that now he's like, damn it, I really got to think about him. Yeah, you do, because I need that for that relationship to start. And just an example of what some silver bullets are, these were gotten years ago. His name's Mark referred me to Aaron. He said he's at my level. Great guy hit had about three people under his team. Now he's got about 30. Good family. Guy, very progressive. He's not. Meathead. Those are all silver bullets that I wrote down. Okay, not a meathead. Yeah,


Mark Hiddleson  40:07  

about me, because I look like a meathead and act like a meathead.


Joe Pallo  40:11  

It's funny. You caught on to that, yeah? When I called Aaron, and again, I'm a script guy, I said, Hey, Aaron, it's Joe Paulo. We haven't actually met. Mark mentioned your name. You said you're not a meathead. 612-805-7576, and I hung up. That's it. 15 minutes later, Mark called became a good client, good friend, and he is a meathead. That wasn't even accurate, he is a meathead, yeah, well, it's Well,


Mark Hiddleson  40:43  

it's funny that I love the meathead thing, because I it's a me it. But people are always shocked when they know, like, how good I am at what I do, or my job, or my professionalism, or the engineering part or the design or everything else. Like I was, this guy was just like a joker, practical. You know, even my son. So our kids have grown up in our business. And my youngest in his early 20s, he goes, Dad, until a couple years ago, he goes, I had no idea you were like, actually good. Well, you know, and saw you're always going on vacation or skiing or snowboarding or but no when it comes to business, and I hope somebody refers me as not a music if anything comes out of this podcast


Joe Pallo  41:24  

that that is a silver bullet no matter what. Here's another thing too. Yeah, when, when I get a referral, I don't count unless I get a silver bullet, it's not worth it. I'm not going to call it it's that valuable because it blows up my ratios. But yeah, you'll get referrals calling you back. Yeah? Now that's a dangerous piece. And here's another little piece I coach on. Let's say I get you with a meathead, just hypothetically, and then I left the number and you called me back. I see it on my phone. It's you, and right now I could maybe, let's say I had time to take the call. I won't run that call right then and there, because I've been burned to an IT. I don't know what's going on. On the other end of the call, I don't want to get halfway through the earning process and you say, Hey, I'm jumping on a plane. Call me next week. I've lost it. I've lost all momentum, right? Do you call me back? I see it's you. I want to talk to you. Your referral. I'll say and pick the phone. Say, Hey, Mark, thanks for calling back. I appreciate it. I apologize. I'm stepping into a meeting. Can we set up a time for next week? I will not go into my sales call then, and I don't want it for tomorrow. I want it for next week, because I want it on your calendar. One, it elevates the importance of what I'm going to do. It gently puts me in control of the call. But also, you see my name on the calendar for a whole week, and that guy called me a meathead. I mean, I mean, you've been in your brain. Haven't you started selling yet?


Mark Hiddleson  42:45  

Right? That's a great so the silver bullet is


Joe Pallo  42:50  

a little bit of information that I know that an average Joe on the street doesn't know, given to me by the referee. And I give, I get a couple on them, each one, because I can leave four or five silver bullets. Yeah, that's four or five messages. Yeah, yeah. Smart you can use you've got those old business cards we talked about, let's say of five names, they're good prospects. You've been referred to them. You left a message. They're cold. They're every time you see but you don't call the referee back and say, Hey. You know, six months ago, you referred me to bill or whatever, and I was actually gonna try to catch him call. Just curious. How long have you known him? What does he do now? Is he at your level? Yeah, hey, what type of decision maker is bill? Is he a numbers guy or is he a driver? Hey, what do you respect most about him? Get a silver bullet on those old referrals. I didn't


Mark Hiddleson  43:37  

get to write those out. I'll go back and listen to this and write it down. This whole thing. Everything will be on the show notes and the transcript and everything. So this is dynamite. And I think that follow up, I mean, that's another thing that I do. And I'm shocked, I have really professional salespeople, a lot of people in the commercial real estate industry. I mean high level sales. And I do that, if I get a referral, I call back say, Hey, Joe, he told me to call Nancy. I called her. We got a meeting scheduled for Tuesday, and when I close the sale, before I even tell my team or anyone else, I try to get back to that referral to say, hey, we did it, we got a meeting, we got their project on track, then we're rolling. And I don't it's it's gratitude, but it's also, what are the other reasons that's good? I mean, I think that people aren't doing that, but, but share some of the other reasons that that's,


Joe Pallo  44:29  

I guess I look at it, reciprocity kicks in. I'm also a part of I don't have a scarcity mindset. There's too much business out there. I give away business all the time. And I actually even tell my clients that, hey, take this we're coaching on and do it. You're going to take it anyway. So I even tell them how to do that, right? Like, just, here's an example. And we don't have to talk about this in the green room before, but there's a, I have a free gut download of the earning system you go to convert sales Okay? Vert sales There'll be a free download for the earning piece. You can download it, and I recommend printing it out, putting it right by your keyboard and writing through that piece. But it's the generosity. What you give out comes back. Same with referrals, yeah, and if they give me that generosity, I gotta, I gotta tell them, it's just the right way to do it. I appreciate I want more referrals, but it's the right thing to do. I always give feedback on


Mark Hiddleson  45:22  

  1. Yeah, and I've had a lot of people, the ones that refer refer more. That's the other thing. Like, like, the people who give referrals will give you more referrals. So absolutely, it's we did a data project with our business a few years ago, and it looked like so much of our business in the last 20 years is tied back to like 30 people, because they referred me to somebody, and then the referral people refer to people who are referral people. So we're running, we're running towards the end here, and I'm having too much fun, but I want to ask you, is there any podcast that you're listening to, you have any favorite podcast, or some technology tool or technology that you're using that you find interesting, or people should want, biggest


Joe Pallo  46:11  

thing that I'm doing, and I think it's transferable. I think you have to be able to gift something and give something away, and especially nowadays. So I'd started about a month ago to my old clients. I'm just gifting them a copy of my book. Oh, nice. There's no string. It's not a say, it's a free copy of the book. And there's a handful of clients, and this is the part that I think it really resonates, resonates. They know me. They've worked with me. They know I deliver. I said, if you want, I'll give you an opportunity to gift three copies of How to Sell Nothing to three of your clients who would appreciate me. I'll do the shipping. I'll pay for the book. It's even I'll write you a letter. You can put your fingerprints on it, basically say, good friend of mine, Joe Pallo and coach wrote a book. It's pretty good. Came in number one in three categories on Amazon. I liked it. Here's a copy. I said, we'll put your return address on it. We'll ship it out, and we'll even let you know. I'll have my admin give you a call when it ships. That works. So if you want to tip that idea of gifting someone, if they take the book Great or whatever, that will generate a call. And I'm getting old clients calling me back. And again, I'm not trying to sell them anything, but it's, it's, I mean, a lot of good conversations.


Mark Hiddleson  47:28  

I love that. I love that. And it ties back into the the generosity piece. So that is, that is dynamite. Well, Joe, in the what would be the best place for people? I mean, I think anyone who's in sales, they should do that download of the earnings, and I'll have a link to that in the show notes. We'll put it pops when we'll be able to click on it. But what's the best way for people to reach out to you? What's the best way to get in touch if they want to?


Joe Pallo  47:54  

I would just just go to my website, I've got LinkedIn, Facebook, book, appointment with me, and then free downloads on there. Yeah, couldn't buy. I couldn't afford the M. Some Bitcoin company bought, They wanted, like, 15 grand for DM, so They go there. They can connect with me there.


Mark Hiddleson  48:21  

Okay, and we will have the link on the show notes and everything. Joe, this is a this has been a lot of fun. Thank you for coming on and sharing some great I'm dying to give you referrals. I'm actually the role playing worked, so thank you. Thank you so much for being a great guest. It's a lot of fun.


Joe Pallo  48:40  

I've enjoyed it, and let's just go back at hockey and because of Vicki, so give her some credit again.


Mark Hiddleson  48:44  

Yeah, dynamite. All right, awesome. Thanks


Outro  48:48  

for listening to The Tao of Pizza Podcast. We'll see you again next time, and be sure to click Subscribe to get future episodes. You.


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