Michael (Mick) Mankowski is the Managing Partner of Symphony Investment Partners, a global boutique for M&A strategy and licensing. In his role, he works with partners to identify strategic acquisitions and partnerships and develops licensing opportunities and strategies. Mick is also the President of SBL, Symphony Investment Partners’ licensing arm. Over the past 8 years with SBL, he has generated over $2.5 billion in licensed product sales for various footwear, apparel, and consumer products brands, including Fila, Body Glove, and Gotcha.
Here’s a glimpse of what you’ll learn:
[2:58] Mick Mankowski talks about his personal and professional relationship with Mark Hiddleson’s father
[6:43] The origin of Symphony Investment Partners and its unique name
[10:35] How Mick started an apparel company — and the importance of supplier relationships
[19:46] Structuring logistics to adapt to changing dynamics in consumer goods
[25:38] Common DTC logistics mistakes
[29:00] Mick delves into the licensing business model
[34:37] Advice on becoming an empathetic, solutions-focused salesperson
[40:57] How Mick identifies opportunities for Symphony Investment Partners
In this episode…
The logistics space has undergone significant changes since the introduction of automated technology and DTC fulfillment methods. Customers expect personalized and same-day services, so businesses must expand their logistics solutions to keep up with the demand. How can you pivot and innovate in this volatile industry?
With decades of experience building and managing an apparel business, Mick Mankowski lost millions of dollars worth of inventory in a flood. After a business partner fully reimbursed him for his materials, Mick recognized the immense value of relationships with suppliers and other partners, allowing him to return the favor by helping his partner acquire customers. These relationships also allow you to navigate changing dynamics like the advent of 3PL, which requires you to borrow suppliers’ warehouses for expedited shipping in DTC models. By consistently adding value to your professional relationships, you can capitalize on opportunities to meet demands effectively.
In today’s episode of The Tao of Pizza Podcast, Mark Hiddleson invites Michael “Mick” Mankowski, the Managing Partner of Symphony Investment Partners, to talk about how he navigates the shifting consumer goods landscape through relationship building. Mick shares the crucial moments that shaped his business approach, an in-depth explanation of the licensing business model, and how to become a buyer-focused salesperson.
Resources mentioned in this episode:
Specialized Storage Solutions, Inc. contact phone: 707-732-3892
Mark Hiddleson's email: markhiddleson@aol.com
“Embracing the Power of Nonlinear Fulfillment Systems With Paul Jarrett” on The Tao of Pizza Podcast
“Optimizing Every Aspect of Return Logistics With Dennis Hoang” on The Tao of Pizza Podcast
Quotable Moments:
"You better treat the people you do business with as your partners and treat them with respect."
"I wasn't a good salesman until I learned to focus on what the buyer wants, not on what I was pushing."
"There's nothing that isn't moving on a freeway if somebody hasn't sold something."
"Entrepreneurs are the heartbeat of America; they put everything on the line every day."
"Be honest, be appreciative, and be truthful with people; that's how opportunities come your way."
Action Steps:
Focus on building and maintaining genuine business relationships: Cultivating strong partnerships creates trust and can pave the way for mutual support in times of need.
Always aim to understand and meet the specific needs of buyers: Doing so ensures better sales results and creates a reputation for being a problem-solver, which can lead to repeat business and referrals.
Diversify skills and be open to learning from different industries: Mick Mankowski’s transition from apparel sales to mergers and acquisitions demonstrates the value of versatility and adaptability in the dynamic business landscape.
Recognize and nurture each business owner's “superpower:” Understanding what you or a business owner excels at can help delegate other tasks to create a balanced and thriving company, as the four pillars exemplify.
Embrace gratitude as a business strategy: Sending a simple message of thanks can reinforce relationships and open up new opportunities.
Sponsor for this episode:
This episode is brought to you by Specialized Storage Solutions Inc.
Listen...
I have been in the logistics and storage industry for several decades. I know I don’t look that old, but it's true.
We provide industry-leading warehouse storage solutions nationwide.
So basically, if you have a warehouse that needs Rack, Shelving, Carts, Conveyors, or Mezzanines, we help with....design engineering, installations, inspections, and repairs to help clients optimize their logistics operations.
Sometimes people don’t even realize that we can actually help with permit acquisition services.
We take a holistic look at your entire business supply chain ecosystem to develop the resources for continually improving your operation.
To learn more, visit specialracks.com or give us a call at (707) 732-3892. One of the best ways to learn more about our products and services is to follow us on Instagram. And there’s a link on our website to do that.
I will even give you my personal email address for podcast listeners, so email me at markhiddleson@aol.com if you’re ready to take your warehouse storage and retrieval systems to the next level.
Episode Transcript:
Intro 0:00
Mark, welcome to The Tao of Pizza, where we feature top logistics leaders, entrepreneurs and supply chain innovators and share their inspiring stories with a holistic twist.
Mark Hiddleson 0:14
Mark Hiddleston here, host of The Tao of Pizza Podcast, where I talk with top industry innovators in the warehousing, logistics and supply chain business with a holistic twist. So today I'm going to be talking with Mick Mankowski about mergers and acquisitions, and we might even be able to get into some talk about licensing. But before I introduce Mick, this episode is brought to you by Specialized Storage Solutions and click, I've been in the in the logistics and storage industry for several decades now, and we still love providing industry leading warehouse storage solutions nationwide. So basically, if you have a warehouse that needs rack shelving, carts, conveyors or mezzanines, we help with the design, engineering installations, inspections and repairs to help clients optimize their logistics operations, and as funny makes some people don't even realize we can actually help with permit acquisition. So we take a holistic look at your entire business supply chain ecosystems. Develop the resources for continually improving your operation. Learn more. Visit our website at specialracks.com Give us a call at 707-732-3892 or even give my personal email out to podcast listeners. It's Markhiddleson@aol.com so today we're joined by Mick Mankowski. He's the founder and Managing Partner of Symphony Investment Partners a consumer products merger and acquisition company Mick, also owner of SB Licensing, a consumer products brand, global licensing company. Mick, welcome to The Tao of Pizza.
Mick Mankowski 1:49
Thank you so much, Mark. It's a pleasure to be with you. Yeah,
Mark Hiddleson 1:53
and I have to say you were one of my dad's best friends, so I've, I've known you for a while. You were, I don't know if I told you this, and we saw each other about a year before my dad passed away. He had that Christmas, yeah, and I saw you there. You met my family. But I remember the first time I met you was in the early 80s, and you lived in places like Folsom or Roseville, but you had a new house and a swimming pool. I think it had a waterfall. I might have added
Mick Mankowski 2:22
to some people, you're right, it was a great house, see
Mark Hiddleson 2:26
waterfall. And I was like, This guy is crushing it, man, he had a yellow and had a lot of El Dorado. You might have a Corvette or
Mick Mankowski 2:33
something. Yeah, Corvette, two Corvettes.
Mark Hiddleson 2:36
So I have two Corvettes. So somehow, I ended up wanting to grow up to be like Mick Mankowski, so great. Share. Met my dad, probably in the 70s or 70s, yeah, for sure. Share how you met, what industry you were in, because I know you were in apparel, right? Yeah, yeah.
Mick Mankowski 2:58
Well, thank you. I Yeah, and I was great meeting your dad. I remember back in probably 1974 I think it was and, and your dad was in Sacramento, and, and I was living there as well. And, and I, I was working for Hager slacks back then in the day, and I was their sales guy calling on your dad. Your dad was the assistant buyer, and, and we hit it off like no tomorrow. We like two peas in a pod. It was so fun. And we, we just remained friends. In fact, when you were getting married to your mom, Carol, we had a bachelor party. And I have to tell you about that story offline, because that was, that's your dad. He was a character. He was so much fun, but he loved life, and he was just a wonderful, wonderful human being. He was my favorite guy ever, and we just became really fast friends, and I really appreciated his kindness. You know, it was everywhere, everywhere about him. There was something he wouldn't do for someone, or he would think of someone, and he was just that guy, and it'd be fun every day we laughed our ass off, yeah, and it was just a joy to be with them. So yeah, thank you for bringing that up and and I love that house, by the way, my wife, when I built that house in Folsom Lake, probably with blood, sweat and tears, because we were in our 30s, like early my wife was in her 20s, and this is our first real project that I'm like. Building a house is not for the faint of heart, when you don't have any money, and we didn't have any money, and so we were like, doing everything. I was on a tractor. I was like, I did everything, put the sprinklers in, did it? But it was so fun, and it's a great memory. It was a beautiful home. And now we live in Santa, Barbara, Paradise, and we love it here. So it's been great. Yeah,
Mark Hiddleson 4:39
and I have two Corvettes, but then I also have a pool at the waterfall. Just saw that when I was probably 12 years old. And it's like, man, you're not living that's great. So, so you were at that time? Were you with Hagar? Had you been still in the peril business? Or,
Mick Mankowski 4:59
yeah, I. Was Mark and, and it was a real, a great experience, because I got to know Mr. Hager quite well, I and it was really funny, because I not funny, but I had cancer and, and the Hager family personally supported me because I hadn't qualified for insurance yet. And so they, Mr. Hager, committed to me that they would pay all my bills personally. And so I got very committed to the company. I was devoted to them because they were so kind to me. And you don't hear of that in business today, and I think that's a missing part. And where I pivoted to today is owning a couple of businesses that are primarily a lot of service providers to that industry still, but missing working for Mr. Hager directly became a great experience. And family owned company and had over 12,000 employees, and I became like his son that lived on the West Coast, and they were headquartered in Texas, and it became a great relationship, and it taught me a lot, and it allowed me the chance to grow and think big, you know, be a dreamer, and try to make those dreams come true through hard work and relationships and and that's that established my, you know, My relate, my ability to communicate and work with people, and I really value that. So thank you for asking. I appreciate that. Yeah, it
Mark Hiddleson 6:27
it was awesome. So, what was the transition like from going to the apparel industry to to what you're doing now with Symphony? And I love the name Symphony, by the way, I'm going to ask you, who, who was that your idea the the name that
Mick Mankowski 6:43
was actually my partner. My partner lives in Washington, DC, and he went to Princeton, and he's a very, very bright guy. Yeah, he's more of the M and A, that's a. It's kind of a good story, because it kind of falls into like, you know, I didn't know what I wanted to do until I was in my 50s. If you want to know the truth, I I had this journey of life, and I tried all these different things. And I owned brands. I tried brands, I had a company in between, where I became a sales agent for multiple. What happened was, when I left Hager, I was kind of lost. Be honest, I didn't know what I wanted to do for the rest of my life. And a friend called me that we worked together at Hager, and he was with a factory in North Carolina, and he called me and he said, you know, Mick, I'm going to fly you out to take a look at this factory, and they made women's Intimate Apparel, of all things. And the last thing I knew was the thing I knew about women's intimate perils. When your dad and I go to a strip club,
Mark Hiddleson 7:31
I was going to say those bachelor parties. And
Mick Mankowski 7:36
so we were like, I'm like, What am I doing here? I'm like, Well, I know nothing about this business. I'm like, and this buddy of mine says, Mick, look at the machines. Just look at the machines. The machines don't know what you're making. We got a lot of machines. We need to round out our year round, you know, business right now, we're, we're heavily skewed to spring and summer, and our fall business drops way off. And I said, Well, this is interesting. I said, So I saw this machine. I said, What is putting elastic on onto a pair of panties, quite frankly? And I said, that's a special type of equipment. And he says, yeah. And then she says, You got a lot of this. And he says, Well, what can, what else can this do? Because I saw, obviously the panty is a stretch material. And I thought, you know, maybe there's something else. And I just left Nike because I interviewed for a job at Nike to be their national sales manager for apparel and I didn't get the job, but it was kind of a good thing in many ways, because when I was at campus, I met a lot of really nice people. So I said, you know, I'm going to call Nike because they, they're, they're apparel. This is back in the 80s, and their pill business is only a half of $500 million and so, and today it's multi billions. But, you know, back then it was 500 million. It was a nice business, believe me. But still, they had problems. They and one of the problems was, is they needed more factories that could, that could do, like this type of equipment that I saw this panning factory, yeah, and I said, I'm going to contact my buddy at Nike and see if they need some more of this equipment that make produce for them. Well, yeah, they next year, we're doing $20 million with them. And that's how I started my sales agency, helping factories diversify their production. So
Mark Hiddleson 9:22
It was like he did contract manufacturing. That's what I call it, contract like, contract manufacturing for Nike. So your, your friend, they made the stuff for Nike, right? Like a third party,
Mick Mankowski 9:34
the third party there was like, they're exactly right, a contract manufacturer. But I saw a real need for that market, and, you know, for companies that needed to diversify their production, because I found a swimwear factory that needed some fall production. I found a t- shirt company that can make fleece. And then the next thing you know, I'm this creative guy. I didn't even know I was this creative because it was more out of need than anything else. And. And so I ended up doing about $54 million in my third year of doing this. And it was to be a really successful business. But then two years later, I'm vacationing in Europe, thinking I'm King shit and, and, and I got a call, and I said, we sold our company, and this is the guy I was doing $24 million with, and he says, We don't need your production. They don't need your customers, honey, I think we better go home. We have a problem.
Mark Hiddleson 10:28
Wow, an opportunity. We call it an opportunity at our company. What's up? The whole opportunity? Nice.
Mick Mankowski 10:35
It's true. Because what happened was it made me realize that I need to diversify my life again. And so I ended up buying a brand called barely legal. I created a brand called Crossport, and then I bought and then I got the license for Body Glove. And so I started my own apparel company, and that became my apparel business that I ended up building. And then two years later, I had my ass handed to me again by having a flood and I had no flood insurance. So you know, you better look at your contract. So far as flood insurance, folks, if you don't have flood insurance, it's something you better take seriously, because I lost literally everything. And the best part of that story is that I learned so much. Mark my relationships are so important with factories and people and one of the things that I'd like to share that I think is beneficial for any young entrepreneur is the people that you do business with are your partners, and you better treat it with respect, and you better give them your cash flow. You better make them really understand how you make money, and that you're not getting rich, but you're making a living, and the more you share with your factories, your suppliers, the more they believe you, the more they care about your business, the more they trust you. And that trust really helped me in the long run, because what happened next is a great story, and I'll tell you real quickly. What it is is so I had this flood. The owner, the guy that gave me unlimited credit for my materials. This is back in the day when you had to buy the hangers, the labels, the hang tags, the boxes, the material, and you'd have to manage all of that. And today, everybody gets a full package out of China, and they're like, whoa, I'm a genius. No, you're a genius now, because you know how much it cost you. Okay, before I had no idea what my shit cost because I had money on fabric and lay brothers and lay hang tags and boxes and, I mean, I had a lot of inventory of shit that I really didn't need. But that goes into the cost factor. Well, this guy gave me unlimited credit for my material. Material represented 65% of whatever I produced. So it was very important to my business, and it was also very important that I made him a believer in my future and what I was doing when the flood happened. He couldn't even get to Santa Barbara to come visit me, because it took like three days to get here. And so finally he got up, came to my warehouse, put his arms around me, said, Mick, you're out of business. And I said, I know. And I started crying. I literally started crying. I had no idea what I was going to do, because I owe millions of dollars, millions of dollars. And he said to me, he said, Mick, what are you going to do? And I thought, What am I going to do to pay him back? That was the first thought that came to my mind. I said, Robert, I don't know how I'm going to pay you back. He said, Mick, I'm not worried. I'm a very wealthy guy. I'm not worried about me. I know you and Mary Lou are hurting right now. How much money a month do you need to live? I started bawling. I'm telling you, it was the most meaningful thing anyone has ever done for me. And I said, Yeah, I gave him a number, and he says, I'll cover that for a year, I promise you. He says, You need to get back on your feet. And I said, I'm here. Yeah, I'm crying. I mean, I'm like a little kid and, and I said, Robert, I said, Thank you so much. And, but then six months go by, he calls me. He says, Mick, can you come and see me? And I thought, well, that party is over. And he said, Can you find me a customer? So guess what I did? I called my friend at Nike again. Okay, I told him what had happened to me. He says, I've got to meet this guy. He flew down the next week, he said, and started doing business with this guy, immediately. And the next thing you know, within a year, he was doing over $22 million within Nike and and not only did he forgive my debt, which is unbelievable, quite frankly, he gave me a chance to breathe life in the and that and what happened. So I got honored to be Nike vendor of the year within two years with this guy. And so at that event, this is the story right here, Mark, because this is how I got to where I am today. I met the owner or the. Guy that was the executive of a large CPA firm in LA, and they were there with one of their customers that was also a preventer of the year. And I ended up saying, the guy said, the guy said, congratulated me. And he says, Can I meet with you next week in LA? And I said, Sure. What do you want? What do you get? What do you have in mind? He says, we have these two divisions of mergers and acquisitions and licensing, and we're having problems with them. And you know, everybody in the industry, we'd like your opinion and what we should do with this. And it was a CPA firm that had 107 CPAs on the West Coast, and I went in and they said, we will hire you for a week. How much do you want? I gave a number. They said, just give us what we should do with this business. The next day, I called him, and I said, We need to have a meeting. And I said, and he said, why? I said, I'll tell you when I get there. I got to the meeting. I said, close the business. I said, your employees are ripping you off. You're dying. You are you? This is because you've made a mistake with people. And I just told him. I said, close it. I said, you need to pay me more. I said, just close it. Next thing you know, he says, Would you come in and run it? I says, You can't afford me. I'm making all this money with Robert, the guy that saved my ass, you know. And I'm like, and he says, Well, no, we'll pay you. And I said, Oh, here's the number. And I said, But, but I won't do it for that number. I says, I'll do it if you give me half the business. Give me, don't I'm not paying a penny, but you got to give it to me. Yeah. They said, Okay, I'm telling you exactly what happened. I'm the next thing you know, I own half this company. I knew nothing about mergers and acquisitions. Knew very little about licensing, and I'm only part owner of this company now, I gotta figure it out. Yeah, but
Mark Hiddleson 16:47
it's your relationships and your Rolodex and your Yeah, the relationships. I mean, I've found a little piece that my dad wrote one time, I think it might have been a resume or something. And it was talking about building business. It was one of those aha moments where you don't really know what your dad was in college. I think at the time, I was like, wow, my dad is good at building business relationships. This is an amazing, great story. And so that's and that's the Symphony. Is, is the M and a company that was started out, okay,
Mick Mankowski 17:24
We changed the name because it was associated with the accounting firm, and I knew that if I wanted to do business with other accounting firms I couldn't have that association anymore. And so I changed the name to Symphony at that point. So
Mark Hiddleson 17:38
It's a great story. And one of the this timing is, I mean, I want, I want to get together with you for over and you really since we started the podcast, since I hosted my the episode, you watched the episode I did with my dad, which was a lot of fun, but we talked about business and relationships and stuff like that. For sure. Your name came up on that one because you're a famous part of my dad's story. But we've had in the past few weeks or few months, people in accounting, like, I hosted an accountant, but they look at, what did he call it? It's like strategic accounting. So they work with consumer package brand, CPG. I had to Google a CPG, because we only deal with CPG brands. So that's one of the reasons I had to brag about using CPG over and over. Now I know what it means. And then another guy because there's a lot of like, what you were doing with the contract manufacturing using excess capacity. That was one of the things that fascinated me about the warehousing businesses. They're seasonal warehouses, so a lot of our clients, you know, they have one client if you know, if it's food, they're harvesting. So once they harvest, they gotta bring everything to its cold stores, and they ship it out during the year. So there's times of the year where they're empty, so they have to fill it in now, with technology, you can do that with capacity, the way you did with the peril. You can do it with warehousing. You can do it with even shipping now this Bulu Paul Jarrett, so Joey spangers was the from tycore. That's a great episode. The other one is Paul Jarrett, and they call it the tricky ship, because they fulfill orders from people across multiple platforms. So it doesn't matter. You could have a Walmart online store, a Tiktok store, Instagram, all these different stores, but the orders all go to one place. They may not even be fulfilled from one place. You know, this stuff could ship from five or six different places, but you're getting one bill, one place, and then all your Yeah, so Mesa is right there. They call it a five PL. So this is perfect timing with your expertise in this business. But how, how is your logistics set up for stuff like that, as far as delivery, fulfillment?
Mick Mankowski 19:46
Well, you know, it's interesting, because that's a great question, because it's changed so much, as you've just alluded to is that, you know, I remember like, even when I started, a good example is when I bought all the components. Yes, and then made it, you know, and I, and I didn't know what my costs really were, because it was, I said it was spread out. You didn't know how much inventory you really had, and all this excess stuff. Yeah, now you do full packages out of somewhere else, China, Vietnam, Bangladesh, Pakistan, that comes to you as a finished product, and you just reship it well. Today they have three PLS, which you never even existed when I was in business, okay? I mean, like, when I have my and that's a big component of the logistics today is, is how that works, compared to owning your own warehouse, and the three pls are a really like, like in my business, like, I'm actually going through this right now with one of my clients, and I'm selling his company, and he's so sold on having his own warehouse. And you know, you know, but he doesn't ever know what his costs really are. Where's the three deals? You know exactly. It's going to be me 35 cents a garment, or whatever it may be. Okay, that's what it is. Yeah, it's X amount per month. And you know what your costs are. It's
Mark Hiddleson 20:59
a rubber band, it could flex. You might be using a little bit of capacity, sometimes a year, and a lot, but you'd say space, and they just bill you for what you're using. You have your warehouse. You're paying for the whole thing all the time. Well, you know, it's
Mick Mankowski 21:12
funny you say that, because I, you know, to help my client that owns his own warehouse, I brought in some customers that needed some warehouse space, you know. So I just reintroduced them to other customers, and I'm not in that business, but I said, you know, this guy needs, he needs that his warehouse is too big for his existing business. He once was a $200 million business. Now he's a $54 million business. So he doesn't have that flex, like the rubber band, you just, yeah, you know. And so he needed to bring in some customers, and was starting to act like a three PL when he really wasn't, yeah. And so, you know, that's, that's an interesting change in the world today in consumer goods. And I don't know where it's going. I do know that like Costco, people like Costco have to store goods too. You know, when they, when they rather return it to the factory and they, let's say, they have a brand, and they, you know, they have a deal with, with the brand, that they gotta take it back after eight weeks of being on the floor. They don't want it on their floor, yeah, well, but the cost will say, Well, I'll take it back in six months from now. So, so you gotta sit on it for six months, and you're like, I didn't plan that into my cost. But that's where the today, yeah,
Mark Hiddleson 22:24
yeah. We just hosted a, I just hosted podcasts with Dennis Hong, a pattern. They're completely reverse logistics, because the cost to bring something back to your warehouse is, like, double what it costs to ship it out. Just because the, you know, return logistics, it's and so they end up with Dennis, their company, a lot of times they'll buy people's returns. We have a lot of people on here that do Costco projects, because a lot of the stuff with Costco, they want them in 24 packs or six packs. So however it comes from the factory, it has to go to another value added, you know, packaging place or three PL, where they put them in 24 packs or 30 packs. We've got one place, my favorite one, they come in six packs of 1.5 liter bottles of wine, and Costco. You have to cut the top off the box. So we have a customer wine server. They take the box, cut the top off, put everything back on a pallet and then send it to Costco. And so the stuff doesn't go right from anywhere to anywhere anymore. It gets imported, and then it gets sent to a warehouse, to another warehouse, then it ends up on the shelf. Well, you know,
Mick Mankowski 23:29
it's interesting, because Amazon has, you know, there's several companies today that are, that are what I call ecommerce type businesses. Yeah, they have inventory problems today. They really do. They have, you know, you're getting a lot of brands, for example, that have no idea how to go direct to consumer, but they know they have to have some element of their business to do that, because they're not, you know, direct to consumer is, is being a retailer. And they've never been retailers in life, they've been wholesalers, yeah, and that whole world is kind of difficult to manage today, and and I think that, you know, there's one company in LA, I don't want to name it, it's literally sitting on probably $100 million worth of inventory that they know what to do With. Wow. And so how does that work into their bottom line? I mean, come on. I mean, you gotta do sisters,
Mark Hiddleson 24:27
you gotta sell a lot of panties to take care of that. Yeah. Joey spangers, that's what I keep thinking. When you said you had all this stuff and you didn't know what your costs are, the tools for accounting have changed, right? You can track a lot more things and add things, yeah, but you'll have to tell me after, after we close out, I want to know who that company is. We'll see if we can sell some of their stuff. See if we can get lucky, right?
Mick Mankowski 24:56
Better be lucky. Better be better to be dumb. I got dumb luck, like you do. I would say you're a dumb Bullock. He told me he's always called me a dumb Bullock. You know so
Mark Hiddleson 25:05
Well, I love saying your name. Mick Mankowski. I have another friend named Rob zolinski, and I've always called him Kozlowski, just because I like the sound of it. So, share a little bit about how people are managing that, what is, what are some of the things you're seeing as far as business models? You know, just from a, really, from any perspective, doesn't have to be distribution and how they go in the market. What are some of the things you're seeing that are work or, what are some of the pitfalls? What are some of the mistakes people are making?
Mick Mankowski 25:38
You know, again, a great question, because we have such emphasis today on direct to consumer that, you know, and and one of the things, just to pivot to another, you know, I'm on the board of directors of a company in Detroit that does customization and personalization. That's getting to be a big, big person. It's a business. People don't even realize how big it is, and it's growing by leaps and bounds, because the consumer appetite for customization, making it their own is really, really a big deal today, and it's and it's not going to slow down. It's, you know, and the quality of the printing has gotten so much better than it was before. Before it was a spray on technology. It was really, truly crap. If you want to know the truth, it was just crap. Now it's fantastic. It's they've really
Mark Hiddleson 26:30
examples. Give me some examples of products, like, I'm thinking of calendars, or something like, what
Mick Mankowski 26:34
like, like, particularly on apparel, you know, because, you know, Apparel has a different substrate, you know that that you it's hard to have that consistency of color because it you have, you have fabric, and fabric is difficult unless you do the whole, you know, like you do, like a normal screen print process, which is very arduous, and it takes forever to set up, and it's costly. And that's why you know, like, like, it's, you look at team sports, for example, like any kid that plays in any sports, it's, it's a they want their shit customized. They want to look, they want it to look cool and with their name on it. They want to be theirs. And, you know, doing that process like fanatics, is one that's sitting on an absolute ton of inventory, because they got into the old technology, and it just didn't work very well. And so they, you know, people like to talk about fanatics as a, you know, and I think it's a great concept. And the guy that owns it's a freaking genius, okay, uh huh. I give credit because it's bizarre how great he has built the company in the billions of dollars of sales. Well, they have problems with inventory, because they have a lot of old technology. Can you imagine putting one number on every and then you did, you know? I mean, then the kids, I mean, it's, it's a big deal, okay, now, with the new technology, with this customization and, you know? And I went to, recently, I went and I went to the imprint show. It's called Long Beach and they had all the equipment there showing the new, latest, greatest technology for this. I'm telling you, this is the future, it is customization, and it's like one of the pieces of equipment may cost $600,000 so it's not cheap to get in. You better have deep pockets to get into that business. And it's no different than like logistics. It's expensive to be in a logistics business, you know, it's not cheap, but, but it's this great service and and that's where I think the future for the apparel industry is going to be changing quite a bit because of consumer demand
Mark Hiddleson 28:36
that we have a few. We don't do a lot in apparel. It is. We do have a few, uh, recently that we've done projects, and it's a different business, uh, but give an example of uh, so when you've licensed Body Glove, I love the and what was the other one about barely legal and body legal? So how is the licensing degree? I'm not even sure how it actually is, so how does something like that work?
Mick Mankowski 29:00
Well, the brand, the brand owner, is called the license, or he owns the trademark and the IP intellectual property, okay, so, and that's gotten to be, again, a huge change for the particularly the apparel, footwear, accessories sector, because there's companies that are buying these brands, and some of the brands are are old and tired, but there's still a life to them. And so what they'll do is they'll buy a brand like say Nautica, for example. Okay? Good brand, great brand. I love that brand, okay? And yet, it got tiring, because the market changed. Well, the guy that bought it is a genius. He bought the brand, and then he licenses it all out in all the different categories. Like, like you see it for Tommy Bahama out there with a Costco with chairs, and you got things that you would normally would never see that brand on. They extend the brand into all these other categories through license. Agreements. The companies that specialize in that category, for example, like Tommy Bahama, don't make the chairs. They have a company that makes them for them, that sells Costco, for example. So the company that makes it has a license fee. He pays a royalty back to the owner of the brand to be able to use that brand to go out into the marketplace for that category. So that's, that's the world of licensing, and they'll hire people like my company to help them, because, again, as you said, it's all about relationships, and I've been at this for a very, very long time. And so there's hardly a company within this particular space that I can't call and contact the CEO, hardly one. I mean, it's like, it's not a huge industry, you think it is, but it's not that big, okay? It's a somewhat narrow focus. And they trust my, my, you know, I'm not going to call them to waste their time, right? If there's an opportunity. You know, I learned from a friend of mine, who's the head of Houlihan Loki, and one of the largest Reuters ranks, the number one in the world for any sales under a billion dollars. It's called hula, and Loki, my friend, runs the Consumer Products Division for that. And he told me something a long time ago that I think is really important. He said, Mick, because he wondered. He says, you've got this deep Rolodex and you got Why aren't you using that one? And I say, Steve, I just feel bad about calling people just for my own benefit. Yeah. He says, Well, don't call them that. He said, But call them if you have it, if you can create value for them. Yeah. And that changed my whole attitude about relationships and how I use them and what I do and who I call if I truly believe in my heart it's a benefit for that person, then I feel good about calling it and it's not a negative. Yeah, and that changed. That changed me. It really did. That one statement from my friend changed that. And I think that's I think it's important for all of us to realize that it's great to use your friendships, but don't use your friendship to add value to your friendship. Yeah,
Mark Hiddleson 32:04
That's great . I love doing that. One of my specialties over the years has been acquiring used equipment, and so we get some wild calls, some to people like, you want to buy this? And I look at it and it's like, I don't know anyone who's going to buy this, you know, sometimes packaging machinery or anything. But I will think of you know, people, maybe, who know somebody or know but I'm not calling them just like, hey, buy something off me. It's like, hey, there's an opportunity to buy something I thought about you because in your business or a lot of times people are asking me to be on the lookout for stuff I'm calling. It's not just to say, Hey, what are you going to buy off me next? I haven't heard from you in six months. I was counting on $100,000 in revenue. What's going on? But it's a value add. That's a great point. And you call somebody and then people take your phone calls.
Mick Mankowski 32:52
They really do. They know you're, you've kind of filtered it for them, you know, you, you've, you've, not, you're not just, you know, there to push something down their throat, and I and that's one of the things that as a salesman, it's really hard, because you got to sell what the company gives you to sell, and so you're kind of pushing stuff that you may not even believe in. Sometimes you know that. And that's, that's the hard part of being a salesman, in all honesty,
Mark Hiddleson 33:15
yeah, and it's, it's lucky in this career, I was in the car business for a while when I was in college, until that's where I earned, uh, I'm not afraid of customers anymore. You know, after five years of doing that, I've pretty much seen it all being called names and everything else, but people usually end up liking me in the end.
Mick Mankowski 33:38
You're such a good guy. It's, yeah.
Mark Hiddleson 33:40
It was like, why were you yelling at me? You say, Look, we don't want to talk to you. But one thing I love about our business. We know we're people are usually even cold calling. Really doesn't even exist in our because if you show up in our industry, you know we're competing with, like, forklift companies, other racking companies. When we show up to someone's warehouse and say, Hey, we're in the neighborhood, we just want to introduce ourselves. We're doing a project, they're always happy to see the racking guy. That's one of the things I love about our business, because there's not a lot of people who do what we do, and there's usually somebody who has a project you know, that might be damaged or small, you know, something to get in the door. What other advice would you give to salespeople that I love, I love anything that has to do with sales.
Mick Mankowski 34:27
You know, it's funny, I never thought of myself as a salesman. I because when I met, when I met the salesman I was impressed with. I thought, Whoa, that guy's got a gift of gab. He's fun to be with. He's a party guy, my kind of guy, yeah, and I'm like, this book, you know, my major was statistics and probability theory. That was my major in college. And I thought, because I'm this nerdy, you know, guy, that I thought, How the hell did I get in sales? I mean, I don't, I don't. I'm not one of those guys. I'm not at a party. Animals. I'm like this. What I didn't realize is, I was a party animal. I liked it.
Mark Hiddleson 35:07
Yeah, it's, uh, well, it's funny that it's more work than that. That said, a lot of people do see the party animal part of the relationship building process, and I've been to a lot of conferences. You were talking about, what was the garment one you just went to in Long Beach? What's that? To Long Beach?
Mick Mankowski 35:23
What's that? Called the imprint show. The
Mark Hiddleson 35:24
the imprint showing the conference is what I found. You know, you could go to the breakout sessions and the round tables and you could really learn a lot, but where people told the real stories and the real problems and the real things to work on was that the bar, that's right, or the pool, the swimming pool, you know some I remember I was when I was first going to those conference. I went to every single conference, every single round table. I was president of my local council. And then one time I was just kind of tired, maybe hungover, I don't know, I decided to go to the swimming pool instead, like I'm not doing any of the morning sessions. I learned more that day at the swimming pool. I did the entire risk on that to be true. I mean,
Mick Mankowski 36:04
well, you know, there's, I got a great story for you that that I'll never forget. I'm still a young buck salesman and and I had my racks of clothing, and I'm waiting for the buyer. They had the buyer day, and I'm waiting in the lobby and, and I'm waiting with all the other salesmen, and this guy is standing next to me with, he had a pad, a paper, and I'm like, Well, I don't even have any samples with them. And I'm like, What's he going to do? He's going to talk. And he's actually, this is a sample day. So the guy goes in before me, and he was there for like, 10 minutes, maybe, okay, he comes walking out, and I go in, I roll my racks in, and I have them all covered and and I take him into there to the buyer. And I said, but I'm gonna she says, Well, what are you gonna show me, Mick? And I says, I'm gonna leave him covered. I says, Bob was here just before me, and all he brought in was a pad of paper. I says, Linda, I'm a young guy. I said, Can you tell me what he asked so maybe I can be a better salesman? And she said, you know, it was really nice of you to say that, Mick. She says, he asked me these, these questions, and I wrote the questions down. But I says, Did you give him the answers? She said, Yeah. So he's going to come back next week and show me what I really want. I said, you know, I think that is a great idea. Linda, I says, I'll be back next week. Okay? And the next thing you know, I learned to work with buyers very differently, doing what they would need, understand what they need, understand what their goals are, what sells, what didn't sell? Why didn't it sell? What's going on in the marketplace. It really made me a better salesman. And that's when i i woke up. Is that that meeting? It was I remember like it happened yesterday, and it happened like 35 years, 40 years ago. And it was like one of those moments, as we all have at some point in our career, where we say, I can do something better if I just know what the buyer wants? Yeah, that's a great
Mark Hiddleson 38:04
yeah. And focusing on this had a guy on the podcast. It's the release of it. He's in sales, and that's one of his biggest things. A lot of salespeople make the mistake and just go in and just go through the whole brochure, walk around and everything and everything they can offer, it's not even close to what the guy wanted. It was like, that was the eight minutes you had. You just told them everything you can do, and it's not what they want. So starting out with that list of questions is, that's awesome, that that is, yeah,
Mick Mankowski 38:35
it was, and it's, it's helped me throughout my career. Actually, it's having that approach, you know. And again, being a guy that really tried to understand, you know, in my world, what actually sold and what, you know, I really dug into the details of the actual sale and what, what caused it. And I ended up having my own warehouse. Because, you know, one of the things like being in the pant business back in the day, the thing the sizes that sold the most were always out of size, always out I'm like, This can't be right? I said, I gotta figure this out. So I said, I know what I'm going to do is I'm going to carry those sizes in a warehouse, and the next thing you know, I'm like, the best salesman in the world, because I was now giving my customer what they actually needed, the sizes thing, you know, like, how difficult was that to figure out, right? They
Mark Hiddleson 39:24
make a certain amount of 30s and 30 twos and 30 fours and 30 sixes and 38 but then you need more of the 30 fours, right? 30 fours, that's
Mick Mankowski 39:32
right, 30 fours and 30 sixes were the best sizes. It was like, Absolutely, like, we're always up in, you know, in these colors. And so I said, Oh, I'll carry 1000 pairs of this size and 1000 pairs of that size, and I would only fill in. And it was a crazy business. It was, like, nutty. And so the next thing you know, I made salesmen of the year. And I'm like, I didn't, and I'm telling you, I was not a good salesman. You were, should have been
Mark Hiddleson 39:56
accountant of the year. Yeah. A statistician of the year.
Mick Mankowski 40:03
Yeah, it's funny. It was just, you know, but it was so fun. It was, those are great learning years though. It really helped me be who I am today. Really, Mark. It was really, you know, that's why the journey is the best, if you just, if you just keep learning and trying and don't give up. And, you know, because those are the things that you can give up at any time you get upset, because it's shit's always going to happen to people, right? You can't avoid it. You just can't avoid unless
Mark Hiddleson 40:29
you're not doing anything. That's what one of my bosses told me one time. He's like, Well, remember, you got problems because you got a lot of projects going on. If you didn't have any projects, you wouldn't have any or we call them opportunities. Yeah,
Mick Mankowski 40:41
exactly. Opportunity. So how, what's a
Mark Hiddleson 40:46
for Symphony? How are you guys? What's a good opportunity? Where do you find, you know, what's a good business? How do people find you? Or what's your ideal client? Like, if somebody is, you
Mick Mankowski 40:57
know, again, you got some great questions, and that's, that's, one that is always top of mind for me is, where does all this come from? You know, where does these where these opportunities stem from? And it's the most bizarre thing ever, because it happens just because you're out there, you're talking to people, you're you're visible. One of the things I try to do is on Thanksgiving. Thanksgiving is my favorite holiday because I really am grateful for the life that I've been given and the opportunities that have been presented to me. And it's my favorite time because there's nothing associated. There's no gift giving, there's no this. There's no doubt. It's a time to look back and say, Boy, I've been very fortunate. I'm really lucky. Yeah. And I sent out a little note to literally, I send out 4000 emails. Wow. And I just, and it's just to tell people I'm grateful for their friendship and thank you. And that's it. Nothing more than that. And the response I get is almost bizarre. It's like, and I'm not a marketing guy. I mean, I'm not a I'm not one of these marketing geniuses that think figure things out. I just want to be appreciative. That's it, by being honest and appreciative and being truthful with people and actually really being grateful, you know. And I think that's the important thing, you know, and, and that's as a result, the things just keep coming my way. I don't, I mean, it's like, you know, like I, in my world, there's things where people will sell a company run a process. It's called a process when, when they run it, and they'll, you know, you go to an investment banker, and then investment banker, that's kind of, we're like, boutique investment bankers, is what we really are, yeah, and, and they and, you know, a company will say, will you? Will you run a process on ours? And I say, I don't need to, I'll just make five phone calls and I'll sell your company. Otherwise, I'm not taking it on the job. I'm not going to run a process, because I don't know who the hell. Because usually what happens in a process is some idiot buys a company, overpays for it, and then they're angry. Yeah, I don't want people to be angry at me, even if we're selling a piece of shit, I'm not going to do that. Okay? So I, my experience is like, I know the industry because I've been at it for 50 years. Yeah, I know who to call when I have a gym. I won't take it on if it's a if it's not a good deal for someone. Yeah, yeah. And what, you know, some My son said, My son was working for me, and he's, he's super smart. He had, he was pre med, and he's a great, great young guy. He worked for me for a year, and he didn't like the business, but he Well, he said something that was really astute. He said, Dad, you're a business psychologist. He said, You have to know what the customer wants. You have to know what the problems are. You know, it's like, I look at the business today, when I'm selling a company, I try to break it down, because I'm not, honestly, I'm not as smart as my partner. My partner's really smart. I'm not that smart and and I said, I gotta make it simple so I understand it. So I look at the business as four pillars of the business. What are the four pillars? Well, you, in my world, you gotta have product. Product is king, okay, you better have money, because you ain't gonna make it if you don't have money. That's pillar 2023. Is he better? Very, you better. You better have some good salespeople. You better have there is nothing that is there isn't a truck moving on a freeway if somebody hasn't sold something, yeah? Okay, absolutely. And you know, the other, the other pillar is, you better have good people, because you can't do it alone. Yeah? And so when I look at the business, I look at those four things, and then I say, what is that owner really the best at? What is he really good at doing? What is his superpower? And it's usually one or two of the things, not all of them. No one can be good at everything. So one
Mark Hiddleson 44:56
of the superpowers is going to fall under one of those pillars, like somebody might be. Really good with the money and the finances, or they might be really great at sales or great at the product. They have a great product, but missing
Mick Mankowski 45:06
right, and they better be good at sourcing, okay? Because sourcing today is critical, and more and honestly, more money is made on this buy side, what I call the buy side, the sourcing side, than it is anywhere else. If you buy right, you can sell, right? Yeah, and that's, that's something. So I dig into those, those elements, and then I try to understand, how is that owner? How can I can He? Is he replaceable? Because if he's the, if he's a designer, for example, and he the designs go away, Who the hell's going to buy that? Yeah, you better have a good designer themselves. So I dig into that level of detail when I'm when I'm looking to sell a business. You know that? You know, honestly, it's, it's the 50 years of experience that allows me to do that in a very quick way, like you'll take a lot of investment bankers that work at Baird or some of the bain or some of the big companies. They're not specialists. You know, they're selling, one day they're selling a medical device company, and next day they're selling a trucking company, the next day they're selling a bakery, the next day they're selling a food chain, or they're selling they're selling something. We don't do that. We focus on the consumer products business, and that's what we're good at, nice and
Mark Hiddleson 46:21
so you can make good decisions in a short period of time. So it also saves people time, because you can look at and go, I can tell you what this is going to be.
Mick Mankowski 46:30
And then you work with entrepreneurs that are like, like, they're, they're the most beautiful people in the world. These entrepreneurs, I love America. Oh, my God, this is a great country. Holy shit. We are so freaking lucky. You know, these other communist countries always crap that's out in the world today. Yeah, you know, we are just lucky. We live in the United States. Yeah, we are really, yeah, we
Mark Hiddleson 46:51
are lucky for that. You know,
Mick Mankowski 46:52
I am. I am so sold on entrepreneurs. It's the heart. It's the heartbeat of America. It really is, and we got to give them credit. These guys put everything on the line every day, and now we have all these rules and regulations that totally screw them all the time. Oh yeah, and it's making it harder and harder for these guys to exist. I mean, like $20 an hour in California for you know? I mean, I understand California is expensive. It really, yeah, and I'm not saying they don't. People don't deserve to have a better life for their families. I completely agree with that, yeah, but everything is going to be more expensive now, everything, it
Mark Hiddleson 47:33
really is. My kids were telling me it was fast food is one was my kids. Their mom never gives them any fast food, so they spend their own money on it, so they're really aware of how much it is. And
Mick Mankowski 47:48
some great kids, by the way. Oh, I
Mark Hiddleson 47:50
I love Cody, Serena and Drake. I have my dad's sense of humor too. We were playing, oh, and you talk about my dad being a wild man. We were playing this game called Cards Against Humanity, and there's all these. Have you heard of it? Do you know what it is? No dirty phrases that you need to kind of like charades or something. You give hints. And my dad didn't know what one of the cards meant, and he leaned over and asked Serena, she was probably 20 at the time, and the Word was queef. My dad didn't know what it meant. When my daughter explained it to him, he started rolling. He was laughing. He was like 7677 years old at the time, and he was laughing, kicking. He was like a little kid. He was in a ball on my counter kick and laughing, crying. Oh, God. But my kids were saying, you know, McDonald's, it's 15 bucks for one person. And I'm like, man, if you had a family of five, that's 75 bucks, you know. I mean, not everyone's ordering that same amount. But he said a few years ago, it was $9 for the same, same
Mick Mankowski 48:57
list of stuff. So, you know, I don't know where it's going. I mean, it's just going to get more and more and more. I mean, yeah, look at everything. Over the last three years, we just gone absolutely insane. I mean, I was going to my daughter who lives in Texas, and she's a builder. She builds barn style homes down there. Yeah, she's got eight kids, and she owns her own construction company with 65 employees. And, you know, you talk about challenges, but I was going to buy a house down there, and it was on a lake. And just pre pandemic, this is just before, you know, just like pre pandemic and beautiful lake home, I've always dreamed of owning a lake home. You know, it's one of my dreams, okay? And I thought, I'm going to do it, and my wife says, No, we're not going to have a place in Texas, okay? And I'm Oh shit today, that same house was 2.7 million.
Mark Hiddleson 49:56
And it's like, Honey, we left some money on the table.
Mick Mankowski 50:00
And I'm like, Oh, dude, that was a, that was a dumb decision. But anyway, you know, that's everything has gone up to your point. You know, it's just really interesting to see how the and I just feel bad for these kids, because it's just, I mean, they're, they're gonna have to make a quarter of a million dollars to live. Yeah, it's unbelievable. Yeah, for sure. For sure. So well,
Mark Hiddleson 50:22
Meg, we're running out of time. I'd love to talk to you more. I'm excited to share awesome stories. I mean, the story about losing everything and rebuilding, I had no idea.
Mick Mankowski 50:36
Yeah, this happened twice in my life, so I'm like, that's why I say, Never give up. Never give up that.
Mark Hiddleson 50:43
I love that. So what's, uh, I want to ask you one more question. Do you listen to any other podcasts? Besides I know this, I'll ask people, what's your favorite podcast? I know this is your favorite podcast.
Mick Mankowski 50:54
It's my favorite broadcast because it's the only one that's ever invited me to be on. So I'm definitely my favorite
Mark Hiddleson 51:00
so this has just been awesome. And so we're going to have in the show notes, I'm going to have a link. I mean, if somebody wants to sell their company, apparel, company, your licensing, or anything that you want people to contact you, right? Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. So are you using one last question, are you using any new technology, or anything that. Like our company, we started using Slack about a year ago, and it's a way to manage projects for people. Are you using anything new town?
Mick Mankowski 51:26
I really, you know, I need to, let me be frank, I'm old school, you know, I'm still, I think, for a guy my age, I still do, you know, it's surprising that I'm still as active, you know, I'm 77 and I'm having a ball. I'm I, if I wasn't enjoying it, I would retire. But listen, I enjoyed just what we're talking about. I enjoy the interaction. And I truly, I really like helping people. It's like, you know, if I, if I can help make a difference and better their their life, whether to sell their business or help them acquire a business to help them grow. It makes me feel good, and that's really why I continue. You know, just what am I going to fish? I love fishing, but when I go to Alaska, I love fishing. So that's another whole story, yeah,
Mark Hiddleson 52:16
but it makes it fun when you do it once in a while. I mean, I think you were fishing five weeks in a row.
Mick Mankowski 52:23
This isn't too much like work to my work.
Mark Hiddleson 52:27
Oh, that is awesome. Mick, it's been an absolute pleasure. He wanted my dad. Thank you so much for joining us. Well, thank
Mick Mankowski 52:36
you and I, and it's so great to remember this about your dad. I, we, we, there's deep love here for that guy. He was so meaningful to my life and I appreciate you as a friend too. Thank you so much.
Mark Hiddleson 52:48
Yeah, thank you for keeping that email string alive in my life, where my dad and I, it wasn't like we weren't talking, but we just weren't visiting every day, but he always had me on that email string, that's some good emails, right?
Mick Mankowski 53:04
I know they've slowed down quite a bit. I hate to say your father would give me a lot too. I trust myself.
Mark Hiddleson 53:08
So thank you for keeping me on that. Because every time I see one, it's, uh, it warms my heart. So great. Well, thank you.
Mick Mankowski 53:15
This has been awesome. Thank you, Mark,
Outro 53:18
Thanks for listening to The Tao of Pizza Podcast, we'll see you again next time, and be sure to click Subscribe to get future episodes.
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