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Building Relationships That Will Last With Tim Wade

Tim Wade

Tim Wade is a Master Coach at Lionhearted Men, a coaching service dedicated to helping clients become the confident and compassionate men, husbands, and fathers they were created to be. Trained by Landmark Education, The Pathways Institute, and Insight Seminars, Tim has 25-plus years of experience as a mentor, author, and speaker in personal growth and transformation.

After being blindsided by an unexpected midlife divorce, Tim turned his deepest wound into a powerful story of relationship transformation that he shares with thousands of men worldwide. Although his mission is to help men become confident and compassionate fathers and partners, his straightforward and often humorous message speaks to women as well.

Here’s a glimpse of what you’ll learn:

  • Tim Wade's background and how he became a business coach

  • How Tim used a painful life experience to become a better person and relationship coach

  • The value of understanding and expressing your emotions

  • Tim's advice for working with a coach

  • Why being right is not always practical

  • Tips for effective communication

  • Tim‘s four-step communication tool

In this episode…

How do you build relationships that will last? How can you communicate better in your personal and professional relationships?

The key to effective communication is to be intentional with listening and understanding what the other person is wanting to communicate. Have empathy and validate their emotions without offering unsolicited advice. Tim Wade, a master coach, advises his clients to listen to others and avoid talking them out of their emotions. It is much more valuable to the relationship to acknowledge their feelings and make it known that you are a safe place for them.

Tim Wade, a Master Coach at LionHearted Men, joins Mark Hiddleson in this episode of The Tao of Pizza Podcast to share tips for building relationships that will last. They also discuss how to effectively express your emotions, the benefits of working with a coach, and Tim's four-step communication tool.

Resources mentioned in this episode:

Sponsor for this episode...

This episode is brought to you by Specialized Storage Solutions Inc.


I have been in the logistics and storage industry for several decades. I know I don’t look that old, but it's true.

We provide industry-leading warehouse storage solutions nationwide.

So basically, if you have a warehouse that needs Rack, Shelving, Carts, Conveyors, or Mezzanines, we help engineering, installations, inspections, and repairs to help clients optimize their logistics operations.

Sometimes people don’t even realize that we can actually help with permit acquisition services.

We take a holistic look at your entire business supply chain ecosystem to develop the resources for continually improving your operation.

To learn more, visit or give us a call at (707) 732-3892. One of the best ways to learn more about our products and services is to follow us on Instagram. And there’s a link on our website to do that.

I will even give you my personal email address for podcast listeners, so email me at if you’re ready to take your warehouse storage and retrieval systems to the next level.

Episode Transcript:

Intro 0:01

Welcome to The Tao of Pizza where we feature top logistics leaders, entrepreneurs, and supply chain innovators and share their inspiring stories with a holistic twist.

Mark Hiddleson 0:16

Mark Hiddleson here host of The Tao of Pizza Podcast where I talk with top industry innovators in the warehousing, logistics, and supply chain business with a holistic twist. Before introducing today's guest, this episode is brought to you by Specialized Storage Solutions. Listen, I've been in the logistics industry for several decades, and I no longer look that old, but it's true. We provide industry leading warehouse storage solutions nationwide. So basically, if you have a warehouse that needs racks, shelving carts, conveyors, and mezzanines, we help with the design, engineering installations, inspections and repairs to help clients optimize their logistic operations. What's funny Tim, is some people don't even realize we actually help with permit acquisition services. We take a holistic look at your entire business supply chain to develop the resources for continually improving your operation. To learn more, you can visit us at, give us a call at 707-732-3892, and I even give my personal email address for podcast listeners. So you can email me if you're ready to take your warehouse storage and retrieval systems to the next level.

Now before introducing Tim Wade, I want to give a huge thank you to Vicki Dello Joio. You can go check out her website. She introduced him and I. She is a life changing workshop leader Chi master and inspirational speaker since 1975. She has helped people 1000s of people really use joy as a fuel through the practice of spiritual fitness. But today's guest is Tim Wade. After being blindsided by an unexpected midlife divorce, Tim turned his deepest wound into a powerful story of relationship transformation that he shared with 1000s worldwide. Although we primarily helps men become more confident and compassionate fathers and partners, his straightforward and often humorous message speaks to women as well when it comes to thriving and personal relationships. Tim, welcome to The Tao of Pizza.

Tim Wade 2:16

Great to see you, Mark. Glad to be here.

Mark Hiddleson 2:19

Yeah, it was immediate connection when we connected in Vicky's we were in a breakout session in just awesome. Immediate. That's right.

Tim Wade 2:28

It was like, Oh, my God, this is one of one of my tribe and vice versa. Right. Yeah.

Mark Hiddleson 2:35

immediate sense of brotherhood. Yeah. And I've practice with Vicki at JFK University starting 20 years ago. And it was her practice. You know, it was in a set almost all of James, are you familiar with JFK? It's in California.

Tim Wade 2:48

It's a little bit.

Mark Hiddleson 2:50

Yeah, it's a lot of teachers from acelin, if taught there, and it was kind of a spiritual learning hub, but it's also like National University took over. So it became really kind of corporate but definitely spiritual, or holistic.

Tim Wade 3:06

Holistic, was I remember esslyn, from when I was much younger. And all I knew about it at the time was they had hot tubs where they didn't wear clothing. That's yeah, that was about it. Yeah,

Mark Hiddleson 3:19

I almost had an embarrassing story. I don't know if I could tell that. And maybe I'll tell that story in the in the middle of the but it is, it's awesome. I mean, it's not talking about a spiritual place to that Big Sur. Right. I've been going back there. Not so one, but I've only been there a couple times. But we keep going back to Big Sur for my birthday for the last five years. Since I turned 49. Yeah, that's my 50th birthday is like the second spring of just kind of.

Tim Wade 3:49

I see. So you've turned 49 For the last five years is that was getting

Mark Hiddleson 3:54

or five? Yeah, yeah, there was one year I skipped a year. But it wasn't until we were signing up for cable and the cable guy said Oh, so you're, you're 45 I said no, I'm not 45 I'm 44 And he said, Well, you know, by the way, you fill out the paperwork, everything looks like 45 and this is Jim my birthday in December and I said Nah, man, you know if you want to argue with me about it, and then I looked at it. Oh, no, he's right. I am 45

Tim Wade 4:20

It's mathematics are complex, you know, who knows?

Mark Hiddleson 4:26

Yeah. So I wanted to get started like I kind of want to ask you about your background. So well and

Tim Wade 4:36

good places to start. Really I have a strange and varied background actually in some ways. I grew up in Southern California actually in San Diego. And yet, I didn't never learned how to surf so I don't look like a beach bum. And never did but still love San Diego loved growing up there and ended up going into the entertain eminent industry at a very young age and around, like I was still graduating from high school at the time, and went into acting and directing and writing a lot of stage worked at the Old Globe Theatre and various played Lloyd Playhouse went up to LA to make my fame and fortune and film and television. Didn't make the fame made good money, though. ended up doing a lot of commercials was on an NBC sitcom. That was on Saturday nights at 930 called 13. East. It was a about nurses on a hospital ward and it was, huh, well, let's put it this way. If I hadn't been in the show, I probably wouldn't be watching it. But

Mark Hiddleson 5:45

I want to watch it now. I'm just thinking,

Tim Wade 5:47

Oh, no, you don't i This is blackmail material. Okay, great.

Mark Hiddleson 5:52

Well, really is the bail how the energy goes? Maybe we'll put a link to it in the show notes. Or maybe we?

Tim Wade 5:59

Yeah, I have been trying to get it off the internet, which is impossible for. But anyway, yeah, it was the Golden Girls was our lead in before you can imagine what our audience was basically, in a sea of blue hair. But, but it was fun. And I actually met my, my ex wife and Co Co parent. On the show. We were both actors. It was a Hollywood love story. And so we have known each other over 30 years now. And speaking of relationships, yes, we are divorced. And yes, we are great friends, and truly happy co parents and raising our two teenagers. And so again, part of my story is that I turned what was initially, you know, obviously very painful, and like a disaster, into not only shifting my career, but also shifting my wife toward, you know, knowing more and more how to be a better partner, a better friend, a better husband a better, you know, I joke that I'm a better husband now than when I was married. Yeah. And so, in that sense, my story after I left the entertainment industry is I became a coach, I became a marketing and business coach, actually, because I had had several businesses in the entertainment industry. And so it became a natural transition after I went through my separation divorce, to start talking to people about relationships, and then a lot of men came forward friends and friends of friends and said, Okay, I'm going through a similar thing. How can you help me and you seem to have a good relationship with your ex? And how did you do that? And, and you didn't die during the process? How did you do that? And so that's, that's really how it all came about. And I've been doing that for about seven years now. Yeah.

Mark Hiddleson 7:56

And that's, that really is a great transition. And that's one of I mean, I don't know if that's called the platitude, wherever, but it's I mean, I love the turning the the wounds, that the thing that you said, turning the wound into something beautiful, is, I guess it's a lot easier to say than to so i want to ask you more about what what were the early days, I mean, not to share too much. But what were some of the things that you did initially, or what was like a turning point where you started to look at that as an opportunity versus like, a victim, I guess or call me and,

Tim Wade 8:34

ya know, that is it, you put your finger on the button there that the very first thing that probably the thing that laid the groundwork for everything else, was that when I really understood, okay, I'm getting divorced, you know, this is happening. In fact, I add to my embarrassment a little bit. I was in denial for a while they're going like, no, no, this can't be happening. And I put a sign above my computer monitor that said, this is happening. Just to remind me of the reality. And when I really got that when I really got okay, I'm, I'm separated now. I'm soon to be moving into my own house. Well, I'll tell you what, no matter what happens, I'm going to turn out a better man, I'm going to come out of this the other side, having learned and grown and that comes from my coaching background and my training in that that was really the only way I think that I could have seen that at that point. But I did see that this can either be the most painful thing in the world, or it can be the most painful thing in the world, plus a gift. And so I don't I don't pretend with my clients and my community like Oh no, this is this can be a walk in the park. Yeah. The best divorces the best you know, co parenting all that still pretty much sucks. At first So that's the first promise I made to myself. And then I called my best friend. And I made the promise to him too. I said, I don't know what it means. But I'm going to do the work to be the best version of me that I could be now. And so then I just started looking at myself, which is, you know, sometimes something we we avoid, and say, Okay, what was my part? How did I contribute to this? And what do I need to do to be really the man I want to be? Not the man I am currently being? Yeah, thanks. Right. Yeah. So that was really the ID and then I got a lot of help. I got I had a therapist, I had a my own coach, because I believe in coaching. And they helped me they helped me really learn how to let go. Learn how to embrace my own life, and learn how to deal with my emotions. Yeah, that was a big one.

Mark Hiddleson 10:59

It's a tough Yeah, I have I do these. Every year, I take these things about, you know, warm out in relationships, and one time, and I'm still pretty much I'm like, I'm like, Okay, I'm a seven out of 10. And the one that I never checked that I'm good at is sharing my emotions in the current moment, the way it's coming up for me, healthy way. Like, I never checked that box. It's like, Yeah, I've been working on that. I know what it is. I've read all the books on it. When I get into a situation, sometimes the motions are working me and I'm not working.

Tim Wade 11:38

That's absolutely. And so you said it, right. It's like I you know, owning your emotions or letting them own you is two different things. And when I was younger and full of piss and vinegar, I really thought I had two emotions, both of which were anger was my main anger and anger. It was my go to sort of UPS when I was upset, that's where I got doesn't matter I could be. And I learned later, of course, that anger is often a cover, right? For sadness, hurt, you know, uncertainty and terror, you know, all of those things. And it was my go to just okay, well, let's see, how do you feel? I feel angry. Anything else? No, just that. I learned along the way. And it took a long time, how to name identify and name my other emotions, and feel them without acting them out. That was that was a big thing. It's like, some people act in on their emotions, they if they have hurt or sorrow, they go inward. And they close off, right? Being an actor, I'm not. I'm a little more outward about things. Having been done that on the end, so yeah, I acted my anger, I would yell and I would stomp around. I mean, I was never physical, physical, violent, or anything like that. But I had a loud voice. I knew how to project on a stage, you know, and all of that. So I learned that the motions didn't have to be scary. As long as I knew what message they were trying to tell me that they're messengers. And so being able to go I'm feeling angry. Like identifying, oh, I'm feeling angry, what else? And then pause and really try to identify Oh, you know, what, I my feelings are hurt. Which is often the case. Oh, okay, I understand my feelings are hurt. And just being able to be with that. It's okay, my feelings are hurt. What do I want to communicate? You were just saying how do I want to communicate? Or what choice do I want to make which may just be for the moment taking a break? Sometimes that was the choice. Take a deep breath. Take a break, take a walk, come back. They say that the half life of of emotions is very short. If you let them be okay. Yeah. There was an author, her name is escapes me all of a sudden, Jill Jill Bolte Taylor, I just remembered it. She wrote a book and did a very famous TEDx called My Stroke of Insight. And it was about her having a stroke and being conscious while she was having it. Also being a neuroscience test neurobiologist, so she wrote about what the what it was like to have the left side of her brain basically shut off. And one of the things she talked about as a scientist, she said, the chemicals that give you emotions, whether it's a dopamine, oxytocin, or it's cortisol and adrenaline and all of those things. They'll the chemical reaction lasts about 90 seconds to two minutes.

Mark Hiddleson 15:04

That's it. Wow. That's it.

Tim Wade 15:07

The only reason and I was like, Well, I don't know about that. I've been angry for a lot more than 90 seconds.

Mark Hiddleson 15:12

You know what, that really pisses me off that you said that?

Tim Wade 15:16

That's gonna piss me off the rest of the day. Yeah. But it turns out, she went on to say, what happens is at the end of that, that cycle of chemicals, we have thoughts and stories and all this stuff that that sort of reengage it erupts, the the end, then you're in a loop of emotions and thoughts, emotions and thoughts. If you can interrupt that loop, then you have the chance to make a different choice that's not based on, you know, the fight or flight instinct that we all have

Mark Hiddleson 15:51

are getting in that energy pattern. That's a story that you've been telling yourself all the time. You're basically you're on the lookout for a team and you're like, Oh, I see that goes right with this that I know is already true. It's, it's hard. That's

Tim Wade 16:02

a really good point. We are,

Mark Hiddleson 16:05

I want to circle back because I want them to reinforce when I asked you what was one of the things you did, I love that you wrote it down? Because that's one of my things, if I'll just and then he posted on your computer, because you were gonna get denial loops was like, how did you break that when you actually wrote it down? And put it that was That was beautiful. And you've had to obviously had some amazing coaches, I wanted to ask you what? You don't have to give me the top 10 There's probably the hundreds of reasons why. But what are some of your top reasons for engaging with a coach because I've always had coaches, but it's one of the things I struggle with sometimes with being a type A. And it's like, I know all this. And it's like, yeah, you know this, but you don't behave it in the coach helps a coach really, really and all the best athletes have code. So what are some of your top two reasons to engage with a coach?

Tim Wade 17:00

That's an excellent question. And you already pointed to one, the the difference between I know it, but I'm not being it or not, I'm not doing it. I believe that the coach can a really good coach can do a few things. One, and maybe this is the number one. Talk to you in a way that no one else will talk to you first of all, because they're not afraid of, do you like me? Do you not like me, and either they're there to advocate for you or grow your growth, right? And then they help you in your process, not just telling you what to do, but asking you a lot of questions to see something you already know, in a new way. So for someone like you, it's perfect, because you do know it. And there's an aha moment where you go, Oh, yeah, that makes sense. I knew that. But I didn't know it this way. I didn't see it from this angle. And then the second part is okay, now, how do you practice that? How do you go from, from theory, the knowledge to practice? And that habitual practice? You know, consistency is what changes things. Right. So I think those you know, those are the two big ones. Really? Yeah, no matter what the subject is. Yeah. So

Mark Hiddleson 18:23

it's that detached person who has your best interests at heart, but is willing to ask the tough questions, get into the tough conversations, and give you tools that you can put in action to kind of change your behavior. There's a quote I love from Stephen Covey, you can't talk your way out of a problem you'd behave yourself in

Tim Wade 18:47

quote that all the time is yesterday, I told a client that because he was like, shouldn't we be talking about this more me and my wife? I might not right now. You have to start behaving first. You know, doing or not doing but just being right.

Mark Hiddleson 19:04

And it is a yeah, I've been married. It's one of our 25th anniversary is in June and it's one of graduations. Thank you. It's a it's a journey. And it's not easy, but we're looking forward to this being like the best our kids are kind of moving out at the same time. Our youngest son will move to college in March then it's June so I'm I want to start being I'm doing those practices I'm doing greeting cards law keeping my mouth shut like that. That's actually the scariest one for me is like oh yeah, so

Tim Wade 19:51

Oh Marco just wow I'm you're so smart. I have to say you got you got it all you do know it all. It's true. Because it's so funny. so that I was just thinking, in fact, I wrote it right here in front of me. Yesterday, when I was talking to someone I said, the first thing to know is that you'll be okay. Like, you're okay. Really right now in the moment, you're okay. You don't have to be panic, hair on fire, because all of those things, things like that just make things worse. And the second thing I wrote was shut up. Shut up. Yeah. And the third one was, listen, that was it. Those are the three keys right there, you know, that the stop being so needy and nervous. And you know, we call it in our community, you acting like a hummingbird. You know, hummingbirds are just like us. And they're really good. They're all over the place. And, you know, all the time. And the opposite of that is being a mountain lion. And a mountain lion. We got a lot of them up here in the Rocky Mountains where I live and you know, they lay on a rock in the sun, and they're just sort of like, yeah, things are good. Yeah. Everything's cool. Yeah. So. So you are right, that is sometimes a just stopping and taking a pause and not saying anything, and then moving into, okay, maybe I should listen a little more here. And make an end. You know, it's Viktor Frankl wrote the book, Man's Search for Meaning. I don't know if you if you're familiar with that book.

Mark Hiddleson 21:21

But search for meaning. Yeah. Yeah. So never read because it scares me.

Tim Wade 21:27

Well, it's, it's not an easy read. For those of your listeners that haven't aren't familiar with it. He was in Auschwitz, during World War Two, he was a psychologist already. And what he came up with was a whole branch of psychology after surviving Auschwitz. But it's his description of how mentally he went through it without, you know, going crazy, or, or anything else. And one of the things he said is between stimulus and response, there's a gap if you if you choose to take it. And, and from a lot of us, it looks like this, there's no gap at all. It's like stimulus and we respond, we react, basically, yeah. And he said, If you can cultivate the ability to stop after the stimulus, whatever it is, maybe it's someone gives you a rude look, or cuts you off in traffic, or your wife says something snarky, and instead of just going, powered by stop, and what I learned to do was to breathe. And specifically, to breathe through my nose. This is something that if Navy SEALs learn to do, they do a type of breathing called square square breathing through your nose and out your nose. The amazing thing about that, for me is that you cannot physically talk while you're breathing in through your nose. It's actually impossible. You can try it and it's like, it doesn't work. Which is so great. It's an automatic shut up, Tim.

Mark Hiddleson 22:59

Yeah. Breathing activates your parasympathetic nervous system to which is also down regulates all those hormones that are saying, Go Go Go fight or flight and

Tim Wade 23:09

Exactly. And then when you when you can widen that gap and stand and really stand in it and go, Okay, I acknowledge when I'm feeling my emotions are normal and natural, they are theirs, messengers are telling me something, somebody stepped on my toe somehow, or somebody did something I don't like if it's a, you know, if it's a strong, difficult emotion. What do I want to do, though? What, what how do I want to respond based on knowing who am I who what do I value? And I value for example, these days, I value being effective and loving. Over being right. Because being right was like such a my ad was my Achilles heel. Yeah. Yeah. Have you got it? Yeah. That's the testify

Mark Hiddleson 24:04

is, even though it becomes a blind spot, I don't even know that I'm doing it. It's just such as going on. And so there's something for me. So what are some of the things that are for that? The Well,

Tim Wade 24:21

yeah, the biggest one was just to was I willing to give up the right to be right? Like, because I was standing, you know, somebody said, once this there, you're standing on your rights. Little, that's the platitude. And how's that working? And it works is that I got in a lot of arguments, because an argument almost always is trying to prove the other person wrong and that you're right. Your opinion, your way of doing it doesn't matter what it is, right. So what if I were willing to give up that Right. Whether I firmly believe and have all the facts on my side, that doesn't matter. Yeah, because it's ineffective. It doesn't create what I want, which is connection with someone that whether it's my son or my, my cope, the a parent or a friend. What do I want? I want to connect. Yeah, I want to be in connection with this person not and being right. Severs connection.

Mark Hiddleson 25:30

Yeah, it takes all the air, all emotional. I heard some some of there was a quote that I shared with my wife it was, do you want to be right? Or do you want to make a difference? And she has, because you should have that tattooed on your ass?

Tim Wade 25:50

Did you tell him? You can't read it when it's on your ass?

Mark Hiddleson 25:55

Somewhere? That do it on someone else's acid

Tim Wade 25:58

that I can see it all? Yeah. And there's so many verbs, do you know you want to be right? Do you want to be happy? Do you want to be right? Do you want to be in connection? Do you want to be right? Or do you want to be in a partnership with you know, all of those fit. Now, that doesn't mean that there aren't things that are true. You know, factually, that doesn't mean that there are not better ways to do some things and not as good. But the being right thing is not the same as having, you know, a conversation about how Hey, how should we do this? I think it could be this way. It could be that way. What do you think? Let's come to a consensus. Yeah, you know, here's my opinion. Here's how I, here's my experience, here's how I've done it before. None of that is, Hey, buddy, you're wrong. I'm right. Shut up. Listen to me.

Mark Hiddleson 26:49

And it's a one on one time you and I were talking we had a short conversation, but we were talking about and I, one of the reasons I've been had one of the reasons I love this show, I've been able to develop some really close relationships in business. And one of my early early mentors had told me, you know, at HUD home is the most important stuff, it's your family, you know, this business is like third or fourth on your priority list. You know, it's like God health family, like whatever. And business after that. He said that you can practice these things in business. And it's a lot easier than doing it's easier to be a better listener in a business setting than all because the stakes aren't as high. I mean, the stakes are still high, it's your living, it's your but at home. Like one of the things I'm writing a book, and it's like all these techniques, it's like Don't try this at home.

Tim Wade 27:39

Don't try this. That should be a book you write that's about business. Like how do you have great relationships in business per se, don't try this at home, because it doesn't all translate. Yeah, the things that make you successful in business will not make you successful with a love partner. You know, and when you're a manager or a CEO or whatever, yeah, there's times when you have to say, this is the way we're going to do it very well. You're not CEO of your marriage, per se, with an underlying, you know, right. That you're you want to peer relationship in your marriage. Right? Yeah. And, and so that's so true. And not only that, I love what you said about, you know, trying it out in business or anywhere else where I tell guys, hey, if you're having trouble with the knee jerk, you know, anger. Try it while you're driving. So many of us have that.

Mark Hiddleson 28:39

Oh, yeah, triggers right there. You can put that into play. Right?

Tim Wade 28:45

Exactly. And so the next time someone cuts you off, or flips you the bird or whatever it is, try taking a breath. And then going okay, what's the story I have? Or what's what am I saying? Oh, he's, he's a jerk. And no, he should, you know, drive off the road. Now, what's the different story? He's had an awful day. And he's, he's just taking it out on everybody. Okay. Or the person in front of you is driving, you know, 12 miles an hour and a 50 mile zone. And you're like, really? I can't really,

Mark Hiddleson 29:21

it's late. Because you were laid out that you knew that you could hit every light and go and then that's

Tim Wade 29:28

exactly. And you'd get angry with this person. What do you got? What do you do if you get a horse you know, all that kind of thing? Well, what if you said wait a minute, that's that's my elderly mother. Who who's nervous about driving and doesn't end drives a little slow sometimes, but that's okay. She's 79 years old. Yeah. It and it's like, you see how you can shift the mindset so quickly, into a different story. Because here's the thing you don't know really what the story is, we always try to guess what the person's thinking why they did what they did? Yeah, we have we're guessing constantly the mind is trying to, to anticipate what's going on. And we're wrong. We're not that great at it. Actually, it turns out we're wrong. A lot of the time,

Mark Hiddleson 30:17

we're wrong. It takes a lot to get our own story. The word yes.

Tim Wade 30:23

Let alone knowing what I'm thinking is already a hurdle, let alone what somebody else is thinking. Yeah, very true. Yeah. And so I had a client once who was having an argument over text with

Mark Hiddleson 30:36

his wife. Hmm. Text for is what I call it. The text

Tim Wade 30:39

war. That's perfect. I'm gonna use that if you don't mind. No, because and it's, it's the worst. I mean, there's no facial expression, there's no tone of voice. It's just the words and often spelled wrong. So he said, they were going back and forth over something. And he, and again, it was an argument where he knew he was right. Finally, she said she texted, okay, fine. Okay. And that really set him off. And I said, Really? What? Why did it make you so angry? He said, Well, I knew what she meant. I said, What did she mean? She meant, okay, fine. I said, Oh, the text had a tone of voice. And he laughed. He goes, Well, no, but I know her. I said, I know you do. And that's exactly what she meant. You're sure that that's true. Because well, probably, I said, probably. You. You couldn't get to sleep that night because of that, probably. And you were angry. I said, What if she meant, okay, fine. What if it was that he went, but I said, But what? Because but but but I said you don't know, do you? You don't know either, either. Neither one of those is true. or false. It's just a story. Yeah. And he went all Mogh. And then he got that. Aha. And he realized in that moment, how many stories he was using to be angry with her when he didn't know. So I said, when you give someone the benefit of the doubt, as a practice, when you when you try to remind yourself, they're trying their best, and they're not out to hurt me, they're not doing this to me. I said, your story changes, and you can let a lot of things go. And he said, Yeah, but what if she was really like, you know, doing, you know, flipping me off. I said, so.

Mark Hiddleson 32:36

That's, that's okay, more than you anyways. It's

Tim Wade 32:38

what's more effective? And would you like to get a better night's sleep? Then just believe the one that's like, she agreed. She thought she agreed with me. I got what I wanted, even if it took a lot out of me. And then we started working on how do we avoid even that text or, you know, kind of thing.

Mark Hiddleson 32:55

So that's one that reminds me that so much easier to do in personal relationships or business because it's a book How to Win Friends and Influence People Dale Carnegie, one of the is, if if there's two motives for an action, two possible motive for someone's action, always choose the nobler of the two actions, that that was the motivation. And my old boss would just he had said it so much, he would always just say, choose the nobler of the two choose the nobler two, if you were getting into something with a customer and you're like, Hey, look at kind of like, we're right, because it happens a lot of times, if it's like the customer's always right, well, right. Sorry, guys, the customer is usually wrong. And you have to figure out a way to work it out. And what the real story is, like, you say, what, what is that okay, fine, from a customer that he just let them go away? Or do you get to the bottom of it and say, Okay, we had a text or, or whatever it is, right, disagree. And it's that and this is the principle that we were we you, I think you asked me what's the biggest challenge and I said it's seeking to understand is the fifth habit the Stephen Covey seeking to understand before being understood, because yes, there's this thing that's like, No, you don't get it this like this is this is

Tim Wade 34:08

no you have to hear me

Mark Hiddleson 34:11

first when it first,

Tim Wade 34:12

right, exactly, exactly. Get it from there. So,

Mark Hiddleson 34:17

what what do you have for I know you have a you have a four step communication thing?

Tim Wade 34:25

Yes, there there is that that I use, and it was inspired by a book name by gentleman named Michael Sorensen. And it's, it's a listening skill. Basically, it's a way to listen to do one of the things just to hear before speaking, you know, be understand before being trying to be understood, and what and I'd love to go through it. It's pretty simple and straightforward, but amazingly effective. And one of the great things about what it is that it leaves the other person for the most part, feeling seen, heard, understood. And I would even throw in what women like to say a lot of times, which is gotten. I have a lot of women friends and how many times they've told me, Oh, you know what I love about my husband, he really gets me. Or I'm dating this new guy met this new guy. And you know what, we just hit it off. And it seems like he really, he really got me he gets me. And that's a huge compliment is right. And I think it's true for everyone, not just the, you know, women say that. But men like to be understood and gotten and seen and heard. And then I read a quote that said, the experience of being seen and understood, for most people is indistinguishable from the feeling of being loved. Mm hmm. That was an eye opener. I was like, yes. Yeah. So if you can imagine that learning to listen better. You are actually giving the other person a gift of Feeling good. Feeling, loved feeling, a sense of worth in high esteem, all of that. It's like, wow, this is powerful. Right? So it starts with, you know, there are some listening mistakes that all of us I'm sure have made at some point or another because nobody ever taught us that lesson, right? We were told to listen in school. Yeah, sit down and shut up and listen, but never really well. How do you listen to someone, especially if there's emotions involved? You know, or high stakes, like you said, and, you know, the number one thing we already said it is like, close your lips. Don't talk so much. Right? So talking too much number one adversary to listening? Yeah,

Mark Hiddleson 37:03

it's the old to listen twice as much as he. Yeah,

Tim Wade 37:08

exactly. Vastly. Another one is listening with prejudice. And you come into the conversation already decided, having decided that you know, this person that they're, they're wrong. They're misinformed, all anything, you want to bring the rush to judgment? Right. So instead of coming with curiosity, like I want to know what they're thinking, and this is especially true with old friends, long term partners, you've been 25 years you're coming up on, and it's easy to think, Oh, I know everything about her. I've known her I know her inside and out. But if you approach it like, what if I don't? What if I don't know everything? And wouldn't that be interesting, as a way of approaching a long term relationship? So no prejudice? The other thing we listened for is agreement. All you're listening for is do they agree with me? Do they agree with my point of view? jumping in and interrupting. Most people really hate that it turns out and yet, so many of us have done it. Yeah, I've done it way too much. And I got to the root for me was the fact that I wasn't really listening. I was preparing what I wanted to say next. Yeah. Yeah. That's why I was jumping in. I had to cut them off at the past, you know, and clarify something or, you know, whatever. Make my point again,

Mark Hiddleson 38:38

be understood first. Yeah, it's a hard exercise. And this is tough to do in a personal relationship, too. And I found most of the time, if I tried to restate it back what they said, in my own words, I usually mess it up the first time. Like, if you actually sit with somebody, okay, so what you're saying is, and then it can get to it's funny, there was this one really bad interview that I saw with a lady she kept trying to trick the guy was gotcha journalist. So what you're saying is that it was something else that she could attack or whatever, yes.

Tim Wade 39:09

Oh, that's so interesting.

Mark Hiddleson 39:11

What you're saying is this. And whenever, like I said, a lot of times when the best thing is to keep him separately, think but go back and clarify that you got the message, right? Because a lot of the times it's a different I'm the first go round. It's wrong. It's like no, that's not what I was. What I was saying. And so

Tim Wade 39:32

one of the tools you can use, absolutely is mirroring back, but with the caveat, did I get it right?

Mark Hiddleson 39:39

Yeah. Did I get it right?

Tim Wade 39:40

Do you want to add more to that or clarify anything? Because the the intention is, I want to understand not I want to shut you down or, or like this, this interview. Yeah, interviewers do that all the time. So what you're saying is that no one should ever do this. You know, and then it's like the guys Like, no, that's not what I said, at all. And so obviously anything adversarial, like that you want to get rid of in any personal relationship, whether it's business or, you know, in a marriage. So, those are some of the traps that we fall into another one recently. You know, that has only been in the last, you know, few Dec couple decades. That's this, oh, this right here, this little guy. Yeah, they did a study, and where they, they measured how effective communication was, and whether the person involved, you know, in talking to another person felt heard, based on whether or not this was sitting on the desk in front of them, that the person wasn't looking at it. In fact, it was face down, okay. And I've done this all the time, right, at a dinner table I have facedown on the table, they said, it's amazing how much lower the score was just because this was sitting out. Wow. So you can imagine if it's in your hand, or you're looking at it, or any, it's just a way of saying, I have no intention of listening to you actually, there's something much more important. Now, I suppose if your child is in the hospital, and you're waiting for the call, that would be might be an exception. But otherwise, they're like, try it. Try putting it away. When you're trying to have a really connected conversation

Mark Hiddleson 41:25

I do in the car, like if I'm having lunch with my wife, well, half the time, I'll say half the time, some of the time. It's like, their little blankie. But I will leave it in the car.

Tim Wade 41:36

little blankie. Exactly. So I don't know if you're I remember Linus when I was a kid. And by any sectors, this would be the new one. Yeah. The phone,

Mark Hiddleson 41:50

it's totally, and I, I get some heat sometimes. And I go after five o'clock that my brother and I just started texting more in everything. My My dad has some health issues over the past few years. So we've kind of reached out to my brother and he's used to people if he does not use to me, it's like, I'm not like I'm ignoring my friends. No. Like I leave my phone like at home really after five o'clock. I don't look at it, because I'll get sucked into the work thing. And I'm trying to keep this separate. We call it separating church and state. Yeah. If I'm if I'm not working on not working. And then within that, if I'm working, I'm working and trying not to do both of those fences. But you miss I miss personal calls. And then the next morning is like, Oh, I saw

Tim Wade 42:34

because I told you and you did. Yeah, it's like but I agree i i have contemplated going back to having a landline just for personal calls. Because a landline, I can probably call it that now. Like we're at where ships at sea, right?

Mark Hiddleson 42:48

To ship to shore radio.

Tim Wade 42:51

Exactly. But But I do, I'll get sucked into work, I'll get sucked into to Instagram, I'll get sucked into anything. You know, it doesn't matter. I'm fully on board. And I'm not I'm still practicing the, you know, full shutdown. At the end of the day. Work is done be with family. So anyway, but I want to go through these four points before we run out of time. Yeah, yeah, please. And they apply by the way, too. Friendships, they apply to parent and child conversations with some tweaks, you know, for age appropriateness. They apply to, obviously to love relationships. I mean, it's amazing, these work really well, for anybody who's listening, no matter what your circumstance, the first rule is to listen and approach the conversation with wanting to understand we talked about this and having empathy. So applying empathy would be I am wanting to understand how this other person feels. That's, that's my goal. Not even so much what they think. But first, what are they feeling? Yeah, let's hear. That's exactly right. Exactly. Right. So what you're doing is you are being curious, you have an open mind, you have even open body posture. Not you know, not doing one of these things. That says, that's an invitation for the other person to actually share with you. What's important to them, how they're feeling about something. So that's number one. And part of that is you're not listening in order to solve it for them, whatever the it is, you and I know as men, we tend to be fixed at guys. And that's great. It's a great skill. But like you said, at work, fixing things is like a great thing to be able to do right solving problems and coming up with solutions. Absolutely. But in a relationship. You know how many times you heard this, this idea? I just want you to hear me. Yeah. Put away your toolbar. acts. Yeah. Right.

Mark Hiddleson 45:02

It can be great a great practice of that when we did. It's one of the reasons I love practicing and like a mastermind, because there's the skill of not giving advice, when you just listen. And you do that exercise, and it does feel great. And I think that's one of the reason we connected is we were practicing, we were actually practicing that we've just met each other really?

Tim Wade 45:23

Right. Right.

Mark Hiddleson 45:26

And it's the it's hard not to just give the 1234 matrix, here's what you should do. Right, exactly. And feel that person. So that's great. Not,

Tim Wade 45:38

yeah, so that's the first thing. Yeah. That's how you approach the whole conversation. Number two, and this is probably the number one thing you could call it. List validating, listening, you could even call it that because it's validation. What are you validating though, when you're when you're responding to someone who's telling you something? How they feel about something, they're there, they're angry, they're hurt, they're grieving, they're, they're angry at you even? And that is? You, you try to listen for what what is they feeling? What is the specific emotion they're feeling? Or emotions? Again, identifying emotions. And then you validate by saying, I understand, or, Oh, I It sounds like you're really angry. Is that is that? Yes, I'm pissed off. Okay. I got I understand, I got it. And part of the validation is helping them even understand that their emotions are okay. They're normal, natural, harmless. In fact, if you don't act them out, or hack them in. And you're saying, I get why you would be angry about that. You might, if you've been in a similar situation, you say, I would probably be angry about that. Or I was in the same place. And yeah, that that really, you know, ticked me off. I get it. I totally understand. Yeah. And you don't try to talk them out of it. And this is huge. Yeah. Because we live in a world in which, you know what I'm going to tell you and your listeners this, and I'll apologize in advance, because as soon as I tell you this, you're going to see it everywhere. And that is Peep, you will hear people saying things like and they do it from out of, you know, good nature. They say don't feel that way. Oh, it's okay. No, you'll feel better. Let me cheer you up. Yeah, you know, it's not as bad as you think. On and on and on. And we think we're doing the person a service. Yeah. And we're not. Because the emotions tend to lose their power when you acknowledge them, and just let them be. Let them be okay. It's okay. It's okay. That you're, you're sad. Yeah, I'll be here with you. In your sadness. Now, what does that take? It takes emotional courage on your part, to be okay with being with someone who's not, you know, feeling well, feeling

Mark Hiddleson 48:01

good. It to stay in that space? Yeah. And I don't think I said LionHearted is the name of your, your, your through your company,

Tim Wade 48:14

line company. That's courage. Yeah. courage and compassion equals lionhearted. So you get both and it takes courage to not it was pointed out to me quite a while back. And it's so true, that there were times I would want to cheer someone up, not because I really wanted them to be cheerful. I just wanted to get out of the discomfort, my own discomfort of being with someone who's having these emotions. So it take and it takes generosity and courage as well. To just be with them, you know, Brene Brown talks about this in some of her stuff about sometimes the best answer is, I don't know what to say, but I'm here with you, here. Um, so you don't run away. You don't try to, you know, change the subject. It's like, no, I'll just be here. In fact, if you just need to cry, or you need to be quiet, or you need or if it's in business, you're someone's doing and walk pacing around. It's like, okay, let them let them. It's okay. I don't, I can handle it.

Mark Hiddleson 49:17

Yeah, right. Your container for that is to be to hold it and not to make it like a hot potato. Exactly.

Tim Wade 49:25

And so that validation is about letting them have their feelings, not talking them out of it, helping them justify like, your feelings are okay. They're not wrong or bad. You don't need to stuff them down or act them out. And then a real tech technical thing is we all use micro validations you're doing it I'm doing and they look like this. Uh huh. Oh, wait, go on. Go on. Tell me more about that. Those are small validations that just again, reinforce the I get you, I hear you. I am, you know with you, right? Yeah.

Mark Hiddleson 50:05

And none of what you said so far has anything to do with creating the solution, or anything else, or even getting your point of view across. That's all. Because that's another thing that opens up the space for somebody to share that this is what they think you're doing it right. Just to build your list for the Lincoln Douglas debate when you get your two minutes or whatever. Yeah, exactly. Genuine. I love that you're going through this too. So we're on three, right? We're

Tim Wade 50:32

over? Three? Yes, we're almost done. These are the easier ones, I think. Three is what you just said. And that is, should you offer advice? Should you give a suggestion? Should you try to fix it? The blanket answer is no. Most of the time, people don't want that. You said, Well, I know this stuff. Most people know. Yeah. And they're pretty good at solving their problems. What they want to be is heard and understood. So they don't really need your advice. And here's the pitfall of advice is becoming the rescuer. And the rescuer always is one up on the other person. I know how to do it. And you don't let me let me just, you know, clue you in. Yeah, nobody likes to be in the one down position. Right. Not only that, when what you can do, though, is ask a really important question. And this works brilliantly with teenagers. By the way, the question is this. That sounds really hard. What do you think you're going to do about that? Some, some version of that, what are you going to do? Or what do you want to do?

Mark Hiddleson 51:45

How are you going to deal with that?

Tim Wade 51:47

That is an empowering question that is putting it in their lap and saying, I believe that you are capable. I believe you're smart. I believe you're powerful. I believe that you can come up with the solution. And it's amazing how people kind of light like they get lighter. And in that moment and go okay, yeah, well, I was thinking of doing this. And then you can have a talk about that. The only time when it's appropriate to offer them some bit of advice is if they asked for it. Really. And with kids, you might, you know, some kids will be like, I don't know what to do. And you go okay, well, let me help you with that. Here's what I've done in the past. Or let's brainstorm what what kind of things could you do? Let's talk about that. So again, you're still engaging the other person, not saying Just listen to me, just in fact, just let me handle it. Is so off putting right?

Mark Hiddleson 52:47

Yeah, you just described Mark Hiddleston? I try it. There you go. There's some habits, you know, it's generational. And yes, I really, you know, all the work. And everything. All this work I've done since even as a as a kid, I've been so passionate about mind body builders to be a more effective person to be a better business person, lover, community serve in it, but you do. I've found in my experience, there's, there's blind spots. And when my motions get, like I love, I love that you're sharing with us, because it's also it's so rare that people when I'm with people who've practiced this, like you, we almost immediately I think that's one of the reasons we immediately connected because you're that kind of listener.

Tim Wade 53:38

I mean, I practice it. Yes,

Mark Hiddleson 53:41

you've practiced it. And in the clock, I said that don't try this at home. Certainly Do you see how well you're practicing it in those more intimate relationships. So this is this is a beautiful,

Tim Wade 53:53

what's great about that, though, it's a playground in a way in that practice, and know that there's no such thing as perfection. There's just, there's just practicing and working towards mastery, you know, that's all Yeah. And it's, it's okay, so the fourth thing, so we went through the the first three, and this is really easy. Validate again, just the fourth one is, so if you're reaching the end of the conversation, and you say, hey, I really understand why you're upset about that. And then add one more thing. You say something like, Thank you for sharing that with me or Thank you for trusting me with with that information, or I really appreciate you opening up like that or telling me that I really do. What you're not it's the validation you're giving there is you're acknowledging that it is difficult for people to open up all of us because it's vulnerable feeling right to actually admit I feel this way. I feel that way. I'm struggling with this. I'm I don't know what to do about that. Yeah. Especially in bed. business where you're supposed to know everything. Yeah. But imagine being a manager, who instead of saying, You're doing it wrong, I'm gonna tell you how to do it. You better do it right. Or you're you. I'm gonna send you packing instead of. So what's going on here? Listening, right? Oh, I see. Okay. Ah, that it sounds like you're pretty frustrated by it. Yeah, well, what what are you thinking about doing about that? Again, it's like, okay, got it? And then it did, they might ask you like, well, how, what do you think I should do? You might in very small measure, go? Can I give you a little help? That's permission.

Mark Hiddleson 55:41

That is what I have learned as a manager I've this was like two years ago is because there's good time and bad time for feedback. And so asking permission to say, you know, like, I do have, I have some suggestions is now a good time that gives them at least you let them know, there's something there, but you give them, let them decide if now's a good time. And I found and using that it's usually like 5050. And on those times where we decide to let it right, we get way better results when we come back. And because it's usually then come back to me and say, Look, I know you brought this up. I didn't want to talk about it at the time. But in a lot of times even know what I was talking about. And just like, you know, you wanted me to do it this way. I didn't. I see. And it's like, okay, you nailed it. So then it's totally in the interest, we will have that conversation in the moment. When I want to be understood.

Tim Wade 56:39

Exactly. I want to be understood. Well, there's I want to give you feedback right now, even though you won't hear it.

Mark Hiddleson 56:47

And it's a it's a practice. And I really love we're running it's we're running out of time, I could go for another 45 minutes to an hour. This is just been dynamite. We're visiting with Tim way, Tim, what's the what's the best? What's the best way to get in touch with you to find out more about your work? So that's the

Tim Wade 57:10

best way is to go to www dot LionHearted. Dot min. Okay, so it's Yeah, most people say there's actually a dot min, let's say Believe it or not. So it's lionhearted dot men, you can go there and, and I, I you'll see that I deal with a lot of men who are in marriage crisis, because that's a huge pain point. But I also deal with men wanting to, they may be starting over, they might be you know, up leveling their life in some way or another. There's all sorts of different things they might be dating, you know, so I am a relationship coach. However, those relationships show up.

Mark Hiddleson 57:53

I know mine, folks, it's Tim Wade. And again, it's a tell me the website again, I know it's dot men, but And we'll have that in the show notes because I know I want to be surrounded by people who are communicating like this and developing great business relationships not just in business, but at home in the community. So Tim, this has been I knew it was gonna be a great conversation was actually way way beyond my expectations. So thank you so much for taking time out and and coming on The Tao of Pizza.

Tim Wade 58:32

You're so welcome, Mark. Thank you for having me. It's been a pleasure.

Outro 58:36

Thanks for listening to The Tao of Pizza Podcast. We'll see you again next time and be sure to click subscribe to get future episodes.


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